Reverting Pershing Square

I don’t know which city department would handle the Pershing Square remodel but please have them visit Union Square in San Francisco and Millennium Park in Chicago. Both parks especially Union Square are about the exact size of Pershing Square and both are inviting and serve valuable public functions. Union Square is both greenery and is the primary underground parking garage in the Union Square shopping district. Millennium Park has an outdoor theater and exhibition art with a great lawn. Or if nothing else go back to one of the original designs and have it mostly grass.

I would also put my two cents in that a small section is allotted for a (much needed) urban dog park much like those found in Manhattan.

There is but one appealing feature of the 1993 design: the fountain. It can be very satisfying to spend 20 contemplative minutes watching it fill, drain, then fill again - surrounded by the many handsome buildings around the Square.

I find the picture of Pershing Square circa 1965 pretty cool and if we could revert to a design that limits the amount of concret added more trees and less sitting/sleeping areas I think there could be great appeal to the park especially with the added residents. Another point I always thought of spurred by the rejection of the park where the Police HQ is going is a park that has hours and is actually closed and opened at certain hours. Meaning locked, like in parts of NYC. I might be in the minority but I like this idea.

I realize that the present version of Pershing Square has been called an abortion that is six degrees of ugly but there are a number of design features that I rather like. The tidal pool as mentioned can be quite nice and has had a pair of ducks making temporary visits of late. The retaining wall south of the fountain has a brilliant quote from Carey McWilliams carved into the wall(test your friends to see if they can find the misspelled word!) Aficionados of Los Angeles literature also recognize the fault line placed in the walkway adjacent to the fountain as not only a nod to local seismology but also as a key metaphor in John Fante's "Ask The Dust". Walking north from the fountain, one can enjoy the fresh scent of the citrus trees. I have always liked the vintage Los Angeles postcards, cast in porcelain and set into the bench at the northwest corner of the park, framed by the perennial cast of Runyonesque characters who inhabit the vicinity of 5th&Hill.

As for making the park more people friendly, most folks are aware of the popularity of the winter ice skating program but the park can also draw large crowds in the summer with lunchtime concerts and Latin dance bands that bring hundreds of swinging baileros into the park to enjoy the infectious sounds of salsa, samba and merengue. If I were to worry about improving the public perception of Pershing Square I would charge the folks running Parks and Recreation with the task of developing more activities that would induce people to visit the park and stay awhile. Losing the annual summer production by ShakespeareLA that was hosted for a few years in Pershing Square is the kind of faux pas that cannot be repeated.

Union Square in SF used to be nice and grassy. But they paved it over a few years ago. Now, it's mostly concrete with a few trees. Hopefully a new Pershing Square would find a happy medium....

S: Yes they’ve done some remodeling and added more stone steps/benches to Union Square. But by building the park upwards (similar to the base of a pyramid) it elevates the center grounds above street level and provides better views from both atop the square and of the square. In between the stone steps there is grass and flower stands and large public art are at the corners.

Looking at some of the older photos of the square I don’t think we should resort back to the jungle motif as that would not be an inviting environment for people to hangout and people watch.

Maybe the idea of a large lawn would inspire people to take up a game of Frisbee football. Just like college?

At one of the Grand Ave meetings the developer told us it would cost $13 million to rebuild the parking ramps, a major problem there as well. That is the entire budget for park improvements at The Civic Center Park. They probably wont do it there.

I just wanted to lend some perspective on the issue.

Just a simple, flat grassy surface, with trees, and park benches, like the Cornfield park is now. Is that too much to ask for ?

Why does everything have to be about a concrete avant garde masterpiece. This city is overbuilding on something so simple, they need to make it "sophisticated".

My understanding is Recreation and Parks is the City department responsible for operating Pershing Square.

I know the Square was remodeled right before the 1984 Olympics, with a simple design that consisted of primarily lawns with several trees (I believe mainly palms in large planter boxes?) around the edges. However, not too long after that time, Pershing Square once again became a place that most people in downtown avoided, occupied by lots of homeless folk.

No matter how nicely designed the park is, as long as the surrounding area -- other than the Biltmore Hotel and the Jewelry Center building (the one built in the early 1980s) -- isn't upgraded and given new life, with lots of booming businesses and discerning residents (or the types who otherwise prefer being in Santa Monica or West LA), Pershing will continue to be a dormant, unappealing environment.

In other words, if modifications like the large new condominium building and hotel across the street from Pershing Square, announced several days ago, don't come to pass, improving the park will be an act of futility.

It's simple folks. Clear the place out and create a magnetic place of memory for future generations of Angelenos.

What would Santa Monica Pier be/have been without the carousel?

Let's get artists Red Grooms and Jonathan Borofsky together to collaborate on a new whirlygig for Pershing Square, therein make the square a point of destination for all pedestrians visiting Downtown L.A. Use art to create a sense of magic. Go ahead: Google Grooms and Borofsky. Any of you who remember their joint exhibit at the Temporary way back when know exactly what I mean. "There is very little difference between the commonplace and the avant-garde."

Photos of a proposed Pershing Square 1964 - UCLA Photos

Sorry, here is the link to some really great old photos of Pershing Square from the UCLA Photo Collection.

http://unitproj.library.ucla.edu/dlib/lat/subject.cfm?subject=162421&all

Thanks to Urban Bruin for the URL to access the great pictures, especially the pair from 1966. The published caption fom July 10, 1966 in the Los Angeles Times proclaiming that "Towering skyscrapers under construction near Fifth and Hill Sts. now give historic Pershing Square and the downtown complex a definable texture and promise of fulfillment of a real downtown." Sounds awfully similar to what is being written and said some forty years later.

More important than skyscrapers, we could sure use a "DONUT CHALET" at the corner of 5th&Hill in 2007.

I'm a little late to the discussion (been busy). A couple of comments I'd make are about the power and limits of design.

I believe it is fair to say there is a consensus that the present design of Pershing Square blows. Subsequently, there has been much speculation on how to do it right. As pointed out, there are some wonderful design details in the existing park. However, the execution of the park in toto is a failure. For the most part, it is a deeply unfriendly place to simply chill out. Wall-to-wall concrete seems to have the wrong effect on visitors. Indeed, the ethos of the place seems to be 'move along'. And even in this regard, it is a failure, since those who do linger make the place even more undesirable.

The response of the park's custodians has been to compensate for the park's physical failings with programming. By creating programming, people will 'use' the park and it can be argued it is a successful public space. The efforts have lurched from the mediocre and pathetic (concerts with Beatles cover bands) to the sublime when the ice rink is installed. (Yeah, I enjoyed the L.A. Shakespeare productions, too.) But, this whole consumption model is really at cross-purposes for the whole point of a park.

This afternoon, I went to The Cornfields over near Chinatown. I enjoyed a pleasant walk in the afternoon sun watching the Gold Line trains roll by and thinking about how the landscape designer put together this place on the cheap. (They did a pretty good job on a shoestring.) The simple beauty and tranquility of the place was successful in letting me chill-out from another long work-week. Is the design world-class? No. But, there's plenty of green grass, open spaces, trees offering shade, picnic tables, paths that meander, with some acknowledgments of local history.

Designing a good park isn't rocket science, unless you make a fundamental error of thinking otherwise, with Pershing Square as exhibit A. So assume that the next design go-round proceeds, what are the prospects for Pershing Square? Well, unless the civic authorities actually police the space to prevent it from becoming a default public dumping ground for the 'homeless' and assorted criminal behavior, this whole discussion about the design of the park is quite besides the point.

Now, I have to take complete exception to the astonishing and offensive comments of Keilee. K states that unless the area "isn't upgraded and given new life, with lots of booming businesses and discerning residents (or the types who otherwise prefer being in Santa Monica or West LA)." Obviously, this K person is completely unfamiliar with the thriving Jewelry District. Moreover, obviously, this K person is completely unfamiliar with the booming businesses which thrive on Latino Broadway. Just because these business districts don't cater to your tastes or sensibilities, does that allow you to wish them out of existence. Too bad you can't handle it when the world doesn't look like the Third Street Promenade. Guess what? You can't buy a decent quincinera dress on the promenade.

Keilee, my hunch is you don't know anyone who patronizes these kinds of businesses. (Except, presumably, when they are cleaning your house or washing your car.) Furthermore, my hunch is you look down on those that do patronize these businesses. Guess what pal? My mother-in-law is in and out of those places everyday. She was here long before you were even aware of downtown Los Angeles as a place of interest. ("My, look at all the lovely architecture, honey.") So I take umbrage, big-time, when you casually assert you'd like to wish her and her world out of existence. This is her world. Just because you have more money and intelligence and power than the likes of her, doesn't mean to you have the right to obliterate it. You may well be able to, but that doesn't make it right.

Happy Mother's Day, Margarita. Sorry about this bozo here.

I think maybe some cafe or other business, like the Tavern on the Green in New York's Central Park, would help bring some pedestrian activity to boost the daytime image.

Currently they only have a few vendors and nothing special. I think a partnership between business and public park interests can keep it clean and alive, well into the night.

Combining programming with some outdoor dining options, very bright future ahead.

Expanding on some of David's ideas above, I also believe that it's pretty hard to screw up a park that is so central to the city. But somehow, the designers of PSq managed to do just that.

I would say, start with a relatively blank canvas. By this I mean a large grassy lawn, with walking paths encircling the perimeter. Remove the walls, the tower, the little frames of concrete that entrap the grass. Be sure to include a regular police or security patrol.

This would at least revert things to the 1950's version. Even if this were a bit boring, I'd think it wouldn't be as bad as what we have now.

The point is: keep it simple, and take care of the basics first. The park right now feels cluttered, even though there isn't even much in it. It is divided up into unusable areas, and is more of a nuisance than an asset.

Moving forward, things can be added to the park. Trees and sleep-resistant benches. Maybe a fountain or stage. If necessary for security, do like in NYC: surround it with a fence and landscaping. (But note: the fence and landscaping should allow you to see into the park, as in NYC.)

Rather allowing a single designer (or business group) to impose a fully-formed "vision" to the park, we should start simple and allow the park to grow organically. Try things and see what works: discard what doesn't. Public squares have a long history of experimentation. We know what works and what doesn't: it's not really a mystery.

David writes: "...obviously, this K person is completely unfamiliar with the booming businesses which thrive on Latino Broadway."

Two can play that game.

How dare you criticize the current design of Pershing Square!!! The architect was Ricardo Legorreta of Mexico. Just because his tastes and sensibilities (and ethnicity!?) are different from yours doesn't mean you can obliterate them. Too bad you can't handle it when the world doesn't look like, uh, the Cornfields. How dare you!

Yes, truly silly.

And I stand by my previous comment about the lack of liveliness of Pershing Square being due mainly to the area's reputation as the land of the destitute, with an almost non-existent or still meager round-the-clock population of those likely to be finicky about the way the Square is designed and maintained. In a similar vein, haven't some officials and pundits claimed that Skid Row would never be tolerated, and would have been cleaned up ages ago, if it were somewhere on the city's westwide instead of downtown LA?

As for the customers of the Jewelry District and Broadway? Yes, I know about them. But, again, they don't live in the immediate area, do they. As such, most of them are going to be rushing to take a bus or drive a car back home, and so they're liable to be too busy finding the best deals in jewelry or, for that matter, quincinera dresses to really care about the condition, good or bad, of a park in downtown.

Is a public park the same as a public square? Is a plaza the same as a playground? As the discussion of Pershing Square's future continues to develop, it may be necessary to ask these questions. All of the above are facets of a vital urban space, yet can the limited boundaries of Pershing Square accomodate all such activities? As Pershing Square has only a fraction of the available land found in Elysian Park or the Cornfields Park it may not be able to host the same range of activities as these larger facilities. In reality, downtown inhabitants have far more parkland within easy proximity than most folks in the metropolitan area. In addition to the two parks previously mentioned, we also have Exposition Park, Echo Park, MacArthur Park and Lincoln Park within a short distance.

Police and security patrols, sleep resistant benches, a fountain, a stage and trees are all design features found in the present version of Pershing Square.

I am in agreement with Whitman Lam that an outdoor cafe on the square would be a fine idea and might be just what is needed to entice guests from the Biltmore to visit the park, especially after the hotel literally turned its back on the park during its retrofit and expansion. In my fondest dreams, the cafe would be called "Black Jack's" in honor of the square's namesake.

Dennis Smith wrote: "Police and security patrols, sleep resistant benches, a fountain, a stage and trees are all design features found in the present version of Pershing Square."

Of course they are: I never said they aren't. My point was, these elements should also be included in a redesigned park, once the clutter has been removed.

Keilee wrote: "How dare you criticize the current design of Pershing Square!!! The architect was Ricardo Legorreta of Mexico. Just because his tastes and sensibilities (and ethnicity!?) are different from yours doesn't mean you can obliterate them. Too bad you can't handle it when the world doesn't look like, uh, the Cornfields. How dare you!"

You're suggesting that criticism of a Mexican architect is racist. That's bullsh*t. The work of architects is subject to criticism...deal with it.

There have been several reasoned criticisms made about the current design. See the two dozen comments above. Do you have any response to them?

I'm sure that Mr. Legorreta's style works in other contexts, especially where buildings of these materials and colors already exist. But in the middle of DTLA, his style just clashes with everything.

The current Pershing square is colored like a Sea Doo.

First off, I need to apologize to this K person. I was truly out-of-line calling them a bozo. I confess I got carried away defending my Mexican mother-in-law on Mother's Day. I think we can all agree that my comment was completely emotional and inappropriate.

Now I admit I've been out of town on some family business in Mexico, so I haven't had an opportunity to review some of the comments in detail. Seems things have gotten a little hot with people throwing about words like silly and racist on account of my comments. My goodness.

Keilee, you have truly misjudged the mood of the mob. Ah yes, obliteration of Pershing Square is eagerly awaited by all of us. Despite some charms, the place is a mess and the desire to start over is very strong. I'm sure there would be much jostling to push the detonator. I'm sorry this prospect troubles you. I'm sure the appropriate authorities will document the place up the wahzoo. Hopefully, a holodeck version of the place will be created in the future for those filled with nostalgia for the place. You don't seem to realize the desire to obliterate the place isn't because we have an ethnic feud with the architect. Rather, we find the place to be a failure as a public space.

No one disputes your assertion, correct I believe, that the park suffers because of the public disorder which is tolerated, or certainly has been for far too many years. However, you assertion that such circumstances would not be tolerated on the westside is contradicted by the facts. There was a time not too long ago when the parks in Santa Monica and the lawn of City Hall were overrun with the homeless. This was the result of public policies which emphasized 'compassion' for these people. However, after many years of these circumstances, this tolerance on the part of the citizens of Santa Monica was reversed and the homeless were no longer welcome to use these public spaces in this fashion. Possibly, you are unaware of these historic details.

Now I'm also sorry to have confused you when I compared Pershing Square and the Cornfields. I did not mean for you to take it literally. The comparison was meant to be illustrative. I'll endeavor to be more clear in the future when doing this. You are correct. The Cornfields is a much larger park and very different compared to Pershing Square.

However, it is on my central criticism which you still clearly misunderstand my point. Your condescending comments and tone about the lack of sophistication of the shoppers in the Jewelry District and Latino Broadway or their inability to afford an automobile or their emotional attachment to family rituals celebrating life only support my assertion. You then seek to brush aside all these people because they don't live in zip codes designated by you(!). For the record, my mother-in-law lives about 20 yards west of the 110 freeway just south of Olympic. She also works in downtown at Spring & 4th and has for about 15 years. Perhaps you missed it when she and 499,999 of her neighbors were in the neighborhood for Fiesta Broadway a few weeks ago. The reason my mother-in-law and her ilk find no reason to 'enjoy' Pershing Square is for the same reason why most everyone here, including you. The design is a mess and public disorder is tolerated. It is here where you and everyone else diverge. You believe it is because of the presence of people like my mother-in-law which prevent the park from every becoming a lively place for all. Moreover, you believe that only certain people who meet your requirements of sophistication (the term you use is finicky). You also seem to be of the opinion such exalted people are to be found only in certain western parts of the city. I find these assertions of yours to be wrong on the facts and incredibly offensive. Incredibly. Clearly we disagree. I'd suggest you think about it.

Lastly, you really need to be much more careful in assuming my motivations for stating my opinions are based upon ethnic rivalry. If you're going to level such serious charges, you ought to bring forward evidence to support your accusation. Given that my wife is Mexican and I'm always singing the praises of Latino Broadway (to the ongoing exasperation of my fellow blogdowntown posters), your case is weak to non-existent. In point of fact, I'd happily plead guilty to the charge of being biased in favored of las latinas.

And on this note, I'll take my leave and ask my colleagues for forgiveness on this ridiculously long post.

Um. Calm down, people. Pershing Square sucks. It needs to be redesigned. The end.

It would be great if Pershing Square had a section designated for pets so that us pet-owners can let our pets do their thing without damaging/soiling the grass for people. I try to make sure our dog does its business in the "dirt part" of the park, but I notice a lot of pet-owners just take their dogs right onto the grass (probably because the dog won't "go" anywhere else).

I also suspect the grass is riddled due to pet-urine-burns. Am I asking for too much? I know people who don't own pets frown on these "requests" ... I feel like a smoker asking for more places to smoke. Hopefully, I'm not offending anyone - just trying to get along and making sure our little guy doesn't piss/crap all over the place.