Lannie on July 28, 2007, at 02:32PM – #1

I found a 1928 photo of Traction from Rose at USC archives.

Hideous-looking utility poles have been mucking up the look of the area for over 80 years. How about the city enter the 21st Century and finally get rid of squalor like that!

D on July 28, 2007, at 03:10PM – #2

these wires should have been undergrounded years ago. its such a blight in LA to have all these wires around. enough already.

Whitman Lam on July 28, 2007, at 03:14PM – #3

L.A. is one of the few West Coast cities that doesn't use underground utility wires. It is dangerous, and very very ugly. They should get the developers of all these new projects to chip in some money for undergrounding.

Sophia on July 29, 2007, at 08:50AM – #6

GOOD RIDDANCE!!!

http://viewfromaloft.typepad.com/viewfromaloft/2007/07/take-down-in-th.html

Tim Quinn on July 29, 2007, at 02:35PM – #7

I love this. How many places could produce documentation of a powerpole over 80 years. Who says LA has no history?

Good work!

By the way, don't you think that if all those wires were put underground that the area would become too expensive for artists . . . oh wait.

Someday we'll be asking that the powerpoles be protected as historic Los Angeles icons. Stand at the corner of Mateo and Fourth Place and look South, a virtual forest as far as the eye can see.

SamaK5 on July 29, 2007, at 11:13PM – #8

/// Stand at the corner of Mateo and Fourth Place and look South, a virtual forest as far as the eye can see. ///

That "forest," regrettably, is evident from many other vantage points throughout L.A. It's a shame that objects which once reflected things of such beauty, when growing within a real forest, end up being such pieces of debris.

As far as chipping away at some of that junk, Los Angeles will soon be outclassed by no less than the home of Mickey Mouse and two championship sports teams (hint: they're not the Kings, they're not the Dodgers)!

Scott Mercer on July 30, 2007, at 04:25PM – #9

No. Power poles are not historic. They are not aesthetically pleasing. Stop kidding around.

They should be removed ASAP and are a blight on the city. It's one thing if the city can't afford to get rid of them. We can afford it.

Third Street near the Beverly Center is another place where huge ugly power poles destroy the landscape. This is about our infrastructure. It's rather important. 100 year old power poles have to go.

Timothy Quinn on July 30, 2007, at 05:46PM – #10

Please, sir, may I kid around, please?

This forum is getting too damned serious. Now people are offended about power pole humor?

It would cost billions to underground all those wires. I'd rather have a subway down Wilshire. Not to mention the traffic headaches it would create while it is being accomplished.

And I am not kidding! So there . . .

Benjamin Pezzillo on July 30, 2007, at 06:09PM – #11

...one more reason to push for a wireless telecom infrastructure though, then burying electric lines could become a matter of time as utility poles are removed, rather than replaced on their current schedule...

...the electric lines would probably need to be housed in some type of waterproof, flexible and insulating sheathing to survive earthquakes without electrifying the water, sewage or gas lines they would likely live near...

Gregory on July 30, 2007, at 06:19PM – #12

"And I am not kidding!"

You should be, because it wouldn't cost billions to do undergrounding of at least strategic sections throughout the city. I can name one of many examples: the power lines on Sepulveda Blvd that parallel the San Diego Freeway from north and south of Wilshire, easily visible to millions of people that pass through there every year. It's a supposedly high-tone part of town. Yea, high-tone with ugly poles all over the place.

If LA can't manage taking care of things like that, then it really is a half-assed kind of town. Way more half-assed than those cities in Europe that have both large transit systems (for example, London's Tube) and not a fraction of as many overhead utility lines as found in "Smell-A."

Tim Quinn on July 30, 2007, at 07:20PM – #13

OK, now you've offended me, Gregory. You know, in Europe they have something called Socialism. I don't, personally, object to paying higher taxes, but a lot of powerful people here do. That's why Socialism is such a nasty word here abouts. Shoot, next you'll be suggesting we adopt a single-payer health care system.

Point is, it is easy to make these broad stroke suggestions and sound all righteous. Another thing all together to convince people to pay for it.

I won't dwell on the logical lapse in your little attempt to insult me . . .

Oh, iffn y'all don't like the way it smells 'round here, whyn't y'all go back where's y'all came from. Go on now, git.

Gregory on July 30, 2007, at 07:26PM – #14

^ Did you even bother to open the link provided by the contributor above? If you didn't, read this and let it sink into your skull:

"Funding to pay for Anaheim's new underground facilities and to remove the older overhead system is provided through a 4 percent surcharge on electric bills. Residents and businesses benefit from the improvements while Anaheim residential rates continue to average 25 to 30 percent lower than electric rates in neighboring communities."

Go on now, git.

Whitman Lam on July 30, 2007, at 07:47PM – #15

How can we fix anything in this city, without raising taxes ? You only get what you pay for people, don't ask for fix its if you can't pay the piper.

Isn't that what got us into this mess ? Proposition 13, putting a cap on property taxes to starve education. And when education suffers, Crime rises, incomes fall, health insurance is almost nonexistent. Not enough tax revenue per capita, well, duh.... It all can be traced back to our failed education system. Because tightwads rule the streets.

Gregory on July 30, 2007, at 07:55PM – #16

^ But it looks like the "tightwads" in a city similar to Anaheim are able to BOTH improve and update the appearance of their city and, at the same time, pay lower power bills than folks elsewhere. So their doing nothing about fixing up their town until only around 20 years ago comes down to simple laziness and ignorance.

Benjamin Pezzillo on July 30, 2007, at 08:27PM – #17

If Anaheim were X, Los Angeles would be maybe 100X in geographic area alone -- perhaps larger?

It's like comparing an apple to the apple tree.

Not only that but, unlike Anaheim, Los Angeles supports a much larger power distribution system with multiple generating stations (and it often sells electricity to micro municipal systems like Anaheim).

If you read the Daily News, then you'd noticed a short while back the union which represents most LA DWP workers recently produced a DVD warning of the aging state of LA's electric distribution infrastructure.

Presuming their motivation was not entirely self-serving, we may be seeing higher DWP rates down the road very soon -- but (to make a car mechanic analogy) it will be for drive train work to keep things running, not paint to make the exterior look nice.

The WiFi system the current mayoral administration has proposed could go a long way to reducing the clutter on utility poles in the years to come (VOIP, Internet distributed television, etc.).

In the meantime, comparing a massive city like LA to Anaheim is like comparing the USA to a small, mostly homogenous European country -- it may sound good in an argument to make a point, but once you start putting the pencil to paper to make it happen you start to see the same architecture and engineering will not translate.

D on July 30, 2007, at 09:38PM – #18

It would be much cheaper to underground if it was synchronized with other departments. We have plenty of streets that need repaving and sewer replacement. as i have said before, lets underground wires, replace sewers, then repave and plant trees and flowers in the place of those damn poles. At the least, Major Blvd's and streets need to be taken care of, Examples include Sepulveda, La Cienega, Figueroa in South LA, etc etc etc. so many to count.

Gregory on July 30, 2007, at 09:59PM – #19

"In the meantime, comparing a massive city like LA to Anaheim is like comparing the USA to a small, mostly homogenous European country"

You're making things more complicated than they really are. However, it's correct to assume that LA, unlike a smaller city, struggles under far more of a dinosaur bureacracy, chock full of well-stuffed workers and lots of featherbedding. I was told by someone who works for the Gas Co that an entry-level job of meter reading for the DWP can earn workers something like $70,000 a year.

And I don't think WiFi will have much or any impact on all the utility lines needed for electricity; most lines hanging on poles are for electricity, not phone or cable service.

Here's the nub of the matter:

"The DWP is a municipal-owned agency that passes along some of its excess revenues to the city. Four years ago, the agency reached an agreement with then-Mayor James Hahn to increase that amount to 7 percent of power revenues, from 5 percent.

Over the past 10 budget cycles, the DWP has transferred nearly $1.7 billion to the city's general fund -- money that could have sped up programs to bury wires and upgrade the receiving system.

Cardenas and others argue that the amount of money taken out is low compared to the amounts collected by other cities with public-owned utilities. If the DWP were privately owned, Cardenas said, the city would likely reap more in taxes than it currently transfers from the utility. More significant, he said, are the DWP managers who haven't focused on capital improvement projects, along with the lack of political will to raise rates to pay for such projects."

jk on July 30, 2007, at 10:15PM – #20

You people are a bunch of snobs. These are just plain old utility poles. They are ugly, but aren't as much of a blight as, say, the lousy performance of the state's public schools. That's UGLY. What about the fact that all this downtown gentrification isn't fixing any social ills - it's just pushing them to the deserts, and creating more homeless people? That's UGLY. Underground these wires as needed, as they fall apart. Move on to the next pole. Improve it incrementally. It's NOT A CRISIS. Find something REAL to worry about.

ZZZZZZzzzzzz on July 30, 2007, at 10:36PM – #21

How about a new topic? There's 3 of you now, no?

Benjamin Pezzillo on July 30, 2007, at 11:04PM – #22

Gregory, you better check those meter reader salary figures against the actual wages earned by those workers (hint, try the City's personnel website -- $47k to start, $67k only after five years of service). That's for a job which requires 40 hours a week of crawling under homes in all weather to get 150 actual readings from utility meters.

The City is taking applications for it:

http://personline.lacity.org/job_list/index.cfm?FuseAction=Showspec&CC=1611

"Candidates should have good eyesight and must be in good physical condition since Meter Readers work alone in the field; walk in excess of seven miles per day in hilly and flat terrain; squat and bend approximately 150 times per day; climb multiple flights of stairs; carry approximately 10 pounds of equipment all day; lift and slide water meter lids weighing approximately 10 to 25 pounds on a regular basis; work in all types of inclement weather, including rain and extreme heat; must contend with hostile dogs;"

In my opinion, $67k doesn't sound like enough after five years of that work.

You're right though Gregory, DWP does transfer money to the General Fund -- but that money will be less this year because DWP just got nailed for overcharging LAUSD in a double-digit millions judgement.

So jk, the reality is things like funding for our public schools and the way DWP operates are not as far apart as you may see them. In fact, they are often impossible to separate.

Incidentally Gregory, the money DWP transfers to the General Fund goes to support non-proprietary departments like Cultural Affairs, Housing, Commission on the Status of Women, Aging, etc.

Also, Gregory, power lines are the lines on the uppermost top of utility poles, all other lower lying lines are telephone or television cable.

For those interested in learning more about City government, I suggest the book published by the League of Women Voters of Los Angeles. Another thought, get a job working for the City and be part of the solutions.

Speaking of D, try getting the water side and the power side of DWP to talk first, as it would make more sense to bury power lines when the streets are torn up for water main replacements than the more complicated task of trying to coordinate across City departments.

Given that workers at DWP make more than their counterparts at other City departments for identical jobs, it's unlikely there would be a rush to support a cooperative atmosphere.

Scott Mercer on July 31, 2007, at 06:05PM – #23

Ugly is ugly.

These power poles are ugly.

If that makes me a snob for wanting to improve the appearance of where I live, then fine, call me a snob all you like.

But I don't see anybody lauding their aesthetic qualities.

If you (that is, anybody) want downtown to continue to look like it did in the past, and continue its former downward spiral into a post-apocalyptic landscape of rubble, be my guest. But I will oppose your efforts.

Gregory on July 31, 2007, at 06:23PM – #24

"That's for a job which requires 40 hours a week of crawling under homes in all weather to get 150 actual readings from utility meters."

I spoke today with the guy who's a meter reader for the Gas Co and he said starting pay for comparable workers at the DWP is, as you listed, around $50,000. However, he said that with overtime that figure can easily balloon way above 50K. He also said that reading meters for electricity and water, which falls under the purview of the DWP, and because of where those meters often are located around a house or building, tends to be easier than reading meters for gas. So you're not going to be getting a lot of tears from him over how his counterparts in LA deserve every cent of their union-backed wages.

However, I'm sure your and other residents' generosity towards city workers is appreciated. Unfortunately, a lot of them probably return the favor by kicking back, putting their feet up on the table --- see the quoteline about all the "DWP managers who haven't focused on capital improvement projects" --- and making sure that as much money as possible from the city's treasury gets funneled into their personal checking account. Therefore, improvements to the city's infrastructure, such as burying utility lines, will just have to wait.

Gregory on July 31, 2007, at 06:39PM – #25

"If that makes me a snob for wanting to improve the appearance of where I live, then fine, call me a snob all you like."

Considering that most of the outstanding cities of the world don't have anywhere near as much of the particular ugliness found in LA, the people who call Rio de Janeiro, Montreal, New York City, Chicago, Rome, Milan, Barcelona, Paris, Berlin, Amsterdam, Vienna, London, Munich, etcetera, home must be the biggest snobs in the universe.

Benjamin Pezzillo on July 31, 2007, at 09:05PM – #26

Gregory, what stops the meter readers at the Gas Company from organizing into an union workforce? Nothing.

Incidentally, I spoke with a retired DWP engineer today -- the cost of burying lines is close to poles when service is first installed but doing it after the fact raises the project costs because individual home owners would likely never pay out of their pocket to bury the lines from the street to their house through existing landscaping and sprinkler systems. Absorbing those costs could easily be $2k to $3k per residential unit. Good luck.

Another party at the table said the political landscape would dictate where such projects did and did not happen in commercial districts as tearing up streets would cost storefronts business and property owners rents.

Gregory on August 01, 2007, at 11:03PM – #27

"what stops the meter readers at the Gas Company from organizing into an union workforce?"

And so with LA's padded payrolls and constantly growing debt to pay for increasingly huge pensions, thanks in part to the popularity of unions, LA's city leaders and bureaucrats will find it much easier to say in the future that they can't make improvements to the infrastructure, including wiping out old power poles, because the city doesn't have the money. Then they'll kick back and put their feet up on the table.

.

"individual home owners would likely never pay out of their pocket to bury the lines from the street to their house through existing landscaping and sprinkler systems."

The DWP can't even manage the concept of burying lines on mostly commercial streets. When the times comes that the areas and streets they're working on require that homeowners also be part of the process, Santa Claus will be alive and well and living in the North Pole.

And so if your and my analysis of Los Angeles is correct, it definitely sounds like a lame, can't-do city.

Benjamin Pezzillo on August 02, 2007, at 08:37AM – #28

Check the facts on "constantly growing debt to pay for increasingly huge pensions". All of the City's pension funds are solvent.

"The DWP can't even manage the concept of burying lines on mostly commercial streets." This is a political issue, not a "can't do" issue. Ask the businesses along Santa Monica Boulevard how much they lost during the years of "street improvements". Developers, property owners and businesses

Benjamin Pezzillo on August 02, 2007, at 08:45AM – #29

...owners in commercial zones will fight against these projects, or at the very least dictate where they happen, because of their impact on making ends meet day to day.

Bottom line, there's more to making things happen in the real world than rhetoric.

Gregory on August 02, 2007, at 02:12PM – #30

"All of the City's pension funds are solvent."

Benjamin, you must not be keeping track of the looming financial quicksand that government-employee pension funds are causing for various cities. Yea, those funds in the LA budget may be okay now, but they're ballooning as each year goes by. And didn't you hear about the big headache hitting San Diego government within the past 2 years because of problems with their increasingly inflated pension funds?

"...owners in commercial zones will fight against these projects"

I guess that implies it's a cop-out if city departments say the main reason they can't bury more lines is because of cost. As for the huge rebuilding of Santa Monica Blvd, comparing that with the less complex and lengthy process of trenching for utility lines and cutting down poles is like comparing apples and oranges.

But this just proves that LA, especially since the era of William Mulholland, is even more of a can't-do town.

Dennis Smith on August 02, 2007, at 03:33PM – #31

As William Mulholland was responsible for the St. Francis Dam disaster that claimed more than 600 lives and is still considered the most tragic civil engineering catastrophe in the history of California, I'm not quite sure that's the kind of "can do attitude" I want returned to my fair city.

Gregory on August 02, 2007, at 04:33PM – #32

^ A lot of the power poles throughout LA were installed when Mulholland still was alive. He may have even been the one who selected the method used in setting up the city's infrastructure. I can see him being the type who'd say "aboveground power lines?! They're cheaper to build and are just as good as cables hidden underground!" That's why, when it comes to the statement of when LA became a noticeably can't-do, unattractive city, I said "especially since the era of..."

Benjamin Pezzillo on August 02, 2007, at 06:48PM – #33

Gregory, Maybe you could come up with some specific examples of the "looming quicksand that government-emplyee pension funds are causing for various cities" because I have missed this information and public sector employment is something I follow closely.

My e-mail address is available through the link in my full name above.

Also, has it ever occurred to you that feedback on an idea is an investigation into its plausibility rather than a "can't do" position?

It's great to have ideas. But at a certain point ideas must meet the real world and the real world doesn't always embrace the idea you have because it has already explored it and the obstacles have been defined.

Gregory on August 02, 2007, at 09:17PM – #34

^ http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/08/business/08pension.html?ex=1312689600&en=f1304b3798aac659&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

But why would this be surprising to you or anyone else? When money has to be given to employees who have retired, who are in some cases retiring at younger and younger ages and are being given an annual sum of money that isn't too much below what they received when they were regular, full-time workers, and when there are increasingly more retirees than fully active, tax-paying employees (or major tax-generating city residents in general), why wouldn't it be tougher and tougher to meet the obligations imposed by pension plans?

"the real world doesn't always embrace the idea you have because it has already explored it and the obstacles have been defined."

Since a lot of the top cities of the world (of the real world too) already have embraced the idea and defined the obstacles as being surmountable, and may have even reached that conclusion and come up with a solution a long, long time ago, that would have to mean one thing: LA really is a can't-do, do-nothing town.

Benjamin Pezzillo on August 03, 2007, at 08:01AM – #35

Gregory, Where is the gloom and doom this one-year old article suggests now that it is a year later?

Also, can you point to another city in the world as large as Los Angeles in square milage that grew as fast as Los Angeles did in the 20th century which has executed your "can do" vision of buried power lines? And while you are at it, what are their electricity rates as compared to Los Angeles?

downtown toilet on August 03, 2007, at 08:05AM – #36

i love this thread. where else can you see someone get spanked repeatedly by benjamin - only to have him keep coming back for more? this is better than curbed la's downtown posts.

jim on August 03, 2007, at 08:42AM – #37

where else can you see someone get spanked repeatedly by benjamin - only to have him keep coming back for more?

that is the sort of downtown establishment that blogdowntown doesn't cover enough. c'mon, eric, ed, and dave, let's see some of the can-do attitude!

Gregory on August 03, 2007, at 09:20AM – #38

"Where is the gloom and doom this one-year old article suggests now that it is a year later?"

Benjamin, if I were on the payroll of city government, I too would want to react like an ostrich with its head in the sand. Otherwise, I don't know why this is so hard to accept:

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_24/b3937081.htm

For instance, if you had formerly employed a gardener or housekeeper to do work around your house, and then you let that person go (because you had moved to a condo and no longer had a lawn that needed mowing, or wanted to do your own cleaning), but you still had to keep giving money to that person well into the future, that wouldn't affect your yearly budget?

"And while you are at it, what are their electricity rates as compared to Los Angeles?"

I'll re-post this paragraph I inserted a few days ago:

"Funding to pay for Anaheim's new underground facilities and to remove the older overhead system is provided through a 4 percent surcharge on electric bills. Residents and businesses benefit from the improvements while Anaheim residential rates continue to average 25 to 30 percent lower than electric rates in neighboring communities."

Lola on August 11, 2007, at 08:26PM – #39

At least the leaning poles of L.A. aren't painted PLAID...