The Problem with Marches

My Commuter Express bus from Century City was only two minutes behind, turning from Olympic into Figueroa, then ground to a halt. I got out and walked up Flower to the Red Line, finding all traffic inexplicably gone from Seventh. Now I know why, thanks! Are these students arrogant or what?

I feel for the people in buses. Commuters in SUVs? Not so much.

I came out of Golds at 7th and Fig this afternoon and saw a huge backup of cars on 7th street. The security guard clued me in about the protest, so I was able to take an alternate route home.

That route took me by a gas station and I filled up for---$43!!! Maybe we should organize a protest against gas prices.

Wow, that seems awfully cold of you. I'd be annoyed (though I currently am not driving), but that wouldn't override my feelings of what is and is not fair in a broader picture.

I'm for kids being able to go to school, whether they have the proper paperwork or not. It's not "their" cause. It's America's cause. If we continue to not educate people and the gap between rich and poor keeps getting bigger, you know the dollar won't just be below that of the Canadian dollar.

How do you feel about the striking writers? Are you annoyed at their cause clogging up the LA blogs? How about Fresh and Easy? I'm pretty annoyed at that topic clogging up my inbox.

The "undocumented" students probably were living in downtown and around downtown way before it became trendy for lots of the newcomers to hang out or live in downtown.

Browne

Merchants on Broadway seem to have successfully protested the perpetual demonstration route down that street.

That, and the popular route for immigration-related issues like this one are from MacArthur Park to Downtown or vice versa -- literally from Metro Center on Seventh to the MacArthur Park Red Line stop.

It can cause quite a problem around Fifth/Sixth and the 110, especially for the 720 route which heads to and from the west on those two streets.

Eric,

How do you gauge your sense of how an action can "hurt the cause"? You'd be correct in assuming many of the drivers might be upset at being held up but I don't see how you can make the leap that therefore "the cause" will suffer. That's a lousy way to measure the effects of social activism. It'd be like saying the annoyance of those that have to watch Leno reruns will hurt the cause of the tv writers. Just doesn't add up.

This post strikes me as coming from a reactionary place, (as does the comment about "disrupting the neighborhood" in Fuentes' WGA post). I think disruption is a good thing, considering how immigrant families are being severely disrupted by ICE raids every day all around us, and how homeless people's and poor and working class people's lives have been disrupted by the uprooting of gentrification. Given these related, and other big-picture related issues in the world (war, global warming, militarized borders, etc.), I think those of us who are interested in addressing these issues might want to consider not simply the temporary disruption of a street for a few hours, but the massive disruption of general strikes, civil disobedience, civil uprising, and other related frowned upon "disruptive," "inappropriate" behavior. It's interesting to me that you're so bugged by "disruption" in this context, and see it as a bad way to gain sympathy. Maybe we don't want your sympathy. Maybe we want change, and the only way to get it, when people refuse to listen outside their nice little comfort bubbles, is to disrupt things and stop the "normal" smooth flow of this dangerous machine. Those who are patriotic about this place might also want to remember how "disruptive" that little Tea Party was in Boston.

It's not uncommon for undergraduates to get immersed in revolutionary ideas, they have the time and aren't invested in the norm most of the rest of our society abides by, rarely do they have financial stakes other than "anticipated" or "potential" earnings after their education.

Disruption stunts get attention and thus get their message out, Eric's post points out that it is often counterproductive to turning individuals affected by the disruption against. That it happens to be this topic is simply a matter of circumstance.

This topic is, however, a no-brainer Kiko.

The by-product of our free society which fought for equality of citizens has been extreme terrorists willing to masquerade as students in America until activated to their plans. Without safeguards at the learning institutions so many others in the world flock for knowledge, we risk repeating exposure to foreign terrorism on domestic soil.

That won't go far when it comes to public-backed and public funds like federal student aid.

Peaceful protests are one thing, but threaten violent revolution in an otherwise democratic society and find yourself fairly warned -- there are plenty of people in the nation willing to defend it...

The next time I don't get my way for whatever it is, I'm going to march up and down for hours right outside KIKO's abode, impeding his/her entry into his/her own home. I'll also make sure to shout/scream/chant several slogans at the top of my lungs. Heck, I'll even toss some litter/garbage/refuse on his/her lawn for good measure. Nevermind that KIKO isn't directly to blame for my plight, nor do I want his/her sympathy or compassion, I just think that disrupting his/her life for a little while might open his/her eyes long enough to consider the big-picture issues I feel strongly about.

Yes, a No-Brainer indeed.

Bogdowntown, I think that the thoughtless, reactionary company that you keep on this issue, and the insidious, condescending, and highly inaccurate, illogical, and fallacious way that it defends your position and attacks mine here, makes my point much more eloquently than I could have.

You guys are a riot!

And wow, I wish I could be an undergraduate, that sounds like so much fun, but I think most of the young people fighting for the Dream Act are more focused on just surviving, funding their education themselves, and doing well in school, than anything else. According to MetroRipit's logic though, they should be lumped with all those potential terrorists waiting to be "activated"--and so should anyone choosing to challenge the status quo in any way that breaches government-approved and sanctioned activity. I'm really glad that Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King and others like them, who actually did the real fighting, didn't take this kind of logic to heart, or we might not have such a so-called "otherwise democratic" and "free society" with "equality of citizens".

And you know, actually, we're all to blame for our plight, Cap'n, and Earth will be disrupting all of our lives real good real fast, whether we want it or not, and yeah, hopefully people will be forced to open their eyes to consider the big picture. But even when the whole thing's burning all around us, I'm not real hopeful about that, mostly because of people like yall.

I heart KIKO.

Texans and their self-righteousness.

Are you serious?

Since when was a protest supposed to be so harmless? You're advocating protesting that's invisible, quiet, hidden, and, essentially, useless.

The whole point of a protest (at least what I thought) was to disrupt order and force people to atleast contemplate an issue and raise awareness. If protests are held in parts of town with no traffic, lower density populations, and disrupt no one, who is it going to effect?

Here was a big protest march that goes beyond the "no justice, no peace" claptrap that stirs the passion of most demonstrators in LA:

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/06/28/1088392599561.html

If people in America want something to gripe and rally about, they really should consider moving to Mexico.

It sure does sound like people who knew what to expect when they moved to Downtown LA still think they are living in the Valley.

I moved here to get away from that kind of provincialism.

And for ten year years it seemed like it was working.

While I would selfishly prefer that the street protests/closures downtown go away to afford myself some peace and quiet, I am not clamoring for their departure, and would in fact be perfectly satisfied with the status quo. The issue I have, and which I will not back down from, is people telling or expecting me to not to find something that inconveniences me, inconvenient.

I think the point which Koko and his defenders are missing is the efficacy of their routine street protest march tactics. Do these protest marches advance the political programs they are advocating? Their failure to give consideration to the feedback they are receiving is probably indicative of the likely future of their initiatives. I sense Koko is intoxicated with revolutionary rhetoric and tactics which are befitting of another era. (Ah, to be young again.) Again, little thought seems to be given to the efficacy of these visions. A cursory review of the modernity's great revolutions has led to massive graveyards. I suspect Koko and his friends know little of these enormous tragedies.

I, like many of my neighbors, feel pity for the students whose parents removed from their native lands to make a buck in the U.S. However, I don't think the rule of law should be overturned to accomodate their misfortune. I'd point out life is not fair. I was not blessed with rugged good looks. It doesn't mean I'm entitled to legislation to overturn my misfortune. Like an adult, I deal with it.

Lastly, I had to chuckle at the description of my fellow blogdowntowners as reactionary. As the in-house reactionary thug/crank/nut, I can assure you their progressive sensibilities are impeccable.

I have been involved in many protests, large and small, over the past twenty years. In my judgement, many of these have backfired precisely because organizers didn't consider how the protest would be perceived.

The tactics of protest should always be compared to each other, in terms of benefits and risks. Protesters must ask themselves: what is the purpose of the protest, and what is the desired outcome?

If the purpose is to rally a public that is largely sympathetic, than a massive, disruptive rally would work because it would show unity in great numbers.

If the purpose is to increase support among a skeptical public, then perhaps it's better to confine the protest to the sidewalk, with large banners and slogans explaining your point of view.

If the purpose is to simply vent anger, then maybe the protest should be directed at the public officials or entities who are the target of that anger.

In general, venting anger in the middle of a busy street during rush hour is interpreted by commuters as hostility toward them.

Alienating the public - the very people from whom you are trying to gain sympathy - is never a good tactic. No matter how strongly you feel that you're right.

The tactics should be determined the desired outcome: that's all Eric is saying.

David Kennedy wrote:

"Their failure to give consideration to the feedback they are receiving is probably indicative of the likely future of their initiatives."

Being the in-house aging leftist, I rarely agree with DK. But in this case I think he is absolutely right.

A protest is only valuable if it moves the cause forward.

Protesters: be smart about it. Don't piss off your target audience.

Kiko, I'm for anyone willing to pay their share of back tax to become eligible for citizenship under normal background check procedures.

But until you start paying your freight in federal tax, don't going telling the rest of us who do how to spend it.

"My wife teaches high schoolers at a charter school that emphasizes college prep, so many of her students will run into this same wall." Eric

Your wife is a teacher, so that means you are cool and things and those comments weren't classist, elitist and 1950s ignorant.

Ok. Some of your best friends are people of color and some of those people don't have money, well you're not cold. I've completely pegged you wrong, since your wife is a teacher and takes her time to teach "those" people.

And for the person who keeps saying protest nicely...I don't think asking for anything nicely works in America. Slavery, jim crow, Native Americans being slaughtered for sport, the Chinese-Americans on the railroad, certain Irish-Americans having to fight on the Mexico side after getting bamboozled into coming into the US on totally bogus promises, the slave wages people pay people in present day America to wash their dog, take care of their kid, sew clothes, do backbreaking labor with no benefits, no protection, no nothing...

Are you going to voluntarily demand that people in the garment industry demand better wages. I don't think so. They are nice, they are polite, they don't cause traffic, they don't bother you, show us Eric. Show us how you work and make an effort for people who keep your life easy.

Maybe you're already doing. All of the people who said you should be nice and that will make your cause more effective, what have you been doing for the nice silent people who do all the crap you don't want to do.

The only reason the Gandhi and Martin Luther King started to become effective is because other forces started blowing things up. And people decided, well I'd rather listen to MLK and Gandhi types than the definite violent undercurrent that was beginning to occur.

Never ever in history has just politely asking for your fair share has ever gotten anyone anywhere.

The American Civil Rights movement only became effective after the Nation of Islam and other extreme groups started carrying guns and threatening to kill people, then the US gov't wanted to chat with MLK, before then the US gov't didn't care one way or the other in regards to civil rights.

I'm thinking in Selma, Alambama they people thought the same thing about MLK and his marches. "Those people should ask for their rights more nicely," 1960s segregated Alabama.

http://www.nps.gov/history/nR/travel/civilrights/al4.htm

That probably caused a lot of traffic.

Browne

^ "The American Civil Rights movement only became effective after the Nation of Islam and other extreme groups started carrying guns and threatening to kill people"

Not true. Many changes were effected before the civil rights movement became militant. The Voting Rights act was signed before the Black Panthers were even founded. Even in Selma (which you cite), the march was organized as a peaceful, non-violent march (until the police made it violent.)

In fact, I would argue that the rising militancy of the late 1960's and early 1970's signaled the end of progress in the civil rights movement. As militancy increased, huge numbers of Americans were turned against leftist causes due to the tactics of militants.

Browne wrote: "Your wife is a teacher, so that means you are cool and things and those comments weren't classist, elitist and 1950s ignorant."

This is how the hard left eats its own. Potential sympathizers are discarded because they aren't sufficiently revolutionary for the self-anointed true left.

There is a belief by many angry but naive lefties that the only way to affect change is by immediately resorting to revolutionary confrontational/violent action. This belief is factually unfounded.

You have to be practical and systematic. Che Guevara talks about the delicate work of sowing the seeds of public sympathy. In his writings, Che talks about the need to avoid confrontation with "the people" in order to systematically increase popular sympathy prior to a revolution. The tactics he describes form a practical strategy for social transformation.

I'm not arguing for or against Guevara. But I am saying that people need to focus a bit more on the practical realities of effecting change.

Why do I feel so passionately about this subject? It's because I'm pissed that every time groups try to organize a protest, the same dogmatic communist organizations come in and take over, bringing every other unrelated cause in and hurting the cause. This is a big part of why the massive antiwar protests dried up. Even though opposition to the war is overwhelming, those of us who want to protest know that communists will come in and distort the message to the media into an all-encompassing anti-America rant. There is no consideration of tactics with these people, only ideology mixed with a "my way or the highway" attitude.

"Are you going to voluntarily demand that people in the garment industry demand better wages. I don't think so. They are nice, they are polite, they don't cause traffic, they don't bother you, show us Eric. Show us how you work and make an effort for people who keep your life easy." Browne

I totally agree with you, I have never seen a post about the garment industries and its workers (I left him a comment but he just ignored it). That is part of downtown last time i checked. He never mentions how many of the new renovated buildings in downtown were and still are sweatshops. He never mentions the small business that are being kicked out for new expensive lofs/stores.

This guy just complaints about everything, he wanted nighlfe in downtown and started to complaint about the bar, he complaints about movies being filmed in downtown, he complains about the noise, and now this? I am sorry but i just cant figure this guy out, he is a two-faced, he only talks about whats convenient to him, it's all about him.

Funny thing eric only repsonded to Joel's comment, hmm wonder why...not even Don left a comment supporting Eric. Your true colors just keep coming out..

"blogdowntown exists to start a conversation about life in Downtown Los Angeles...The goal of the site is to cover Downtown from a pedestrian perspective. News to us is what we see in our day to day lives"

I guess certaing people are not part of downtown...we don't see them.

Joel C,

Notice the start date of (black panthers, brown berets...) immediately following the ennacting laws that certain people did not follow.

The Nation of Islam started in the 1930s Joel, so what are you talking about certain extreme groups didn't exist. Yes they did and just because a law was signed doesn't mean people actually followed the law.

You lived as a black person in Alabama in 1965?

Possibly you should ask a black person who would be of voting age in 1965 Alabama, Mississippi or Florida how would they would rate the voting experience in 1966, because people always follow the law.

Why do you think extreme groups started?

Because after all of the being nice and polite and following the rules, people still didn't want to treat certain people as human beings.

I'm sure no one in the garment industry is getting paid less than minimum wage right?

There is a law against that.

Possibly we should go ask day laborers and people who get paid by the piece how much they get paid, because it's illegal to pay people less than minimum wage. It's also illegal to profile people, because of their appearance.

But I'm sure it never happens, because that's against the law and America has signed a bill saying "you can't do that."

And America always follows the rules, right?

In regards to the angry lefties comments I'm not on the left or right. I'm simply observing American culture and calling it how I see it.

But I'd prefer angry lefties to clueless moderates.

"It's because I'm pissed that every time groups try to organize a protest..." Joel C

I'm pissed too. I'm pissed that certain people get bothered, put in uncomfortable positions, denied jobs, denied housing, denied a quality of life and these people have been waiting since the US was founded to be treated fairly and decently, but because certain people don't have the "right" last name and the "right" skin color they are treated very badly.

You ever been hunched over a sewing machine for 12 hours in the garment district Joel? You ever took your daughter to a nice restaurant for her graduation from high school and have people think you're the help? You ever done backbreaking labor for 40 bucks a day? You ever been stopped by the police with you wife and kids in the car and have to spread eagle and have the police search you and your car because of what you look like and you're 45 years old and you haven't done anything.

You ever done any of the above and then have someone tell you your kid doesn't qualify for money to go to school, because of some paperwork bs.

How much longer should people wait to be treated like human beings Joel? How long would you wait while people treated you like a stray dog?

How nicely would you ask for your fair share while people are standing on your back and taking food out of your kid's mouths?

Browne

Why don't they pursue their higher education in their parent's native country? The dollars that they (parents) are making here is for a large part being sent back to their native country anyway. Why should we reward illegals again by providing their legal by default children with money for higher education? Graduate high school (don't thank me for paying for that, its okay!) then get a job and pay for college yourself. Blame your parents not me that you will graduate when you are 35. You are ILLEGAL. YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO THE SAME RIGHTS AS ME! TOO BAD. IF YOU DON"T LIKE IT LEAVE. Despite your lame arguments, we will indeed find people to rake our leaves, pick our fruit and flip our burgers. Or we'll build robots to do it...yeah... Don't f**k up my commute again. PS: Why are high school students marching anyway? If we fined their fine, upstanding illegal immigrant parents $1000 dollars everytime their precious offspring decided to leave school and disrupt traffic (May Day) maybe we could come up with some college money then.

While I understand this topic is emotionally charged, there are quite a few unfair arguments and ad hominem attacks being tossed around here. It seems to me that many of the people discussing these issues here agree with the ends, but merely disagree about the means, and nevertheless attack each other.

In any event, with respect to militant and revolutionary groups, I have to agree that such groups do more harm than good. Social change does not require violence, though it may require suffering violence (for example, MLK's charge that his fellow marchers be willing to endure the blows of enemies without fighting back). It also may well involve inconveniencing others, but certainly not out of a sense of hostility, spite or revenge (as some here seem to encourage). The point of peaceful protest is a highly persuasive argument to the public: this situation is so wrong that I'm willing to be beat up and abused to let you know about it.

An example of two hotly controversial issues today (which I do not intend to debate, but only raise for analogy) demonstrate the devastating effect of violent revolution. One example is the homosexual rights movement. That movement has been forced to distance itself from more extreme, violent groups (and has done so successfully) in order to retain credibility in its message. The violent groups made it difficult to obtain the current legal protections now enjoyed. However, when anti-homosexual criminals inflicted abuse on innocent people, that movement became more successful. Another is the pro life movement, which likewise has attempted (without much success) to distance itself from the abortion clinic bombers, as such violent demonstrations have certainly done nothing to advance that cause.

Peaceful protest may be effective even though inconvenient, but not when it is meant to intentionally inflict harm on the very public it seeks to convince. It is far more convincing to see someone willing to be beat up (a message of courage) than someone who is willing to beat others up (a childish tantrum).

I certainly disagree with the end on this matter. Why should American children of all shades, creeds, and colors compete for financial aid with the children of ILLEGAL immigrants. We can sit in the ivory tower and wax poetic all that we want about Ghandi, MLK the beauty of peaceful protest etc etc etc. What about the issue? As to the means: high school students, especially the students in this city, should be in school working on their grammar skills rather than marching.

"In any event, with respect to militant and revolutionary groups, I have to agree that such groups do more harm than good." NaturalLawyer

So a protest where people don't touch people, carry signs and clog up traffic is now viewed as an "extremist" political move...

So anytime an event happens and people have to wait in traffic and look at signs is now an extreme political move.

Didn't know that. Maybe that's why China ran over those people in Tiananmen Square, they were extremist.

I think the people who plan events at the Staples Center are part of an extremist paramiliarty group that is destroying the country and ruining the cause of good amphitheatres everywhere.

What do you good Americans suggest we do about the Staples Center?

"Why should American children of all shades, creeds, and colors compete for financial aid with the children of ILLEGAL immigrants." Mick

I'm going to tell you Mick you really need to check out the Bracero Program. The reason why "American" children should compete with "illegal" children is because American companies invited their parents here. They invited them here so they could pay them slave wages and owing to that fact I think the least the American gov't can do is to treat their children like they do all of the other children in the US, since their parents got the screwgy owing to a completely racist policy.

If the US was fair and decent they would allow dual citizenship for people who live in countries that closely border the US. To expect someone to completely cut off ties from their home country when it's two hours away is completely unreasonable, stupid and an archaic way of thinking.

Of course doing that would make it harder to exploit people. I think your problem Mick is really with capitalism. Corporate America doesn't like paying people and if it can get away with not paying people it will. Keep in mind the reason the US became the US is owing to slavery and the US can't seem to let the whole not paying people dream die, which is why they always try to find a new group of people to give the screwgy to and not pay.

Browne

^ Talk like that is cheap and easy when one is living in the safety and comfort of the United States. Living in the US instead of in the squalor, crime and corruption of Mexico. Incidentally, Mexico for several generations has been beholden to a very socialized, very liberal way of thinking and governing. Wow, look at all the good that's done for them!

If they need money for school, why don't they join the military, serve our country, like everyone had to do in one way or another back in World War II and all the civilians that sacrificed by being limited to how much food they had and everyone recycling more then than we do now. I'm not against the protest as at times that's the only way to get attention, but I'm not one to ask for any help either, even if if I am a Disabled Veteran and gave all my health and my colleagues gave their lives so you have the Right To Protest, speak out, assemble in groups, and all the other freedoms that we enjoy even though hundreds of new laws keep being added to our lives each day. And please don't use the current war as to compare what the military does or what the news says in their filtered programs. Just once I would love an honest administration that was truthfull and was able to make this country come together and be aware what goes on and how many times a week we stop bombs from going off or missile strikes and biological attacks, that never make the news. Our Country is so diverse now it's hard to come together as One and have common goals as everyone will disagree. I could not imagine if we had to go through a World War now a days as I don't believe people would be able to sacrifice as our Grandparents did. I want to write more but i can't my arms only work for a few minutues.

Mr. Browne, thanks for mentioning the Irish on that blog. It seems every race that came into this country either forced or persuaded or abducted, however, all went through suffering, some more worse than others obviously, either way this is not taught in our schools, is it? Seems like the graduates today no nothing of our history here and all the things that this country has gone through, which up until lately has been a secret, or played down by whomever. A lot of the facts are coming out, especialy on the History channels and discovery channels about what really happend and how our History books left the horrible parts out. BTW happy Veteran's Day everyone~

In response to the post: b) less sympathetic to their cause

In response to nonstp: Happy Veterans' Day, and thanks to you and all VFW.

In response on the tangential topic of financial aid to illegal immigrants: serving in the military can provide not only the college-level education they are seeking but also the citizenship required to qualify for a job in order to put that education to use in the US. The education they receive through high school is an amazing gift, considering that it is financed from taxes paid by citizens and legal immigrants.

Thank you NEB! You said it best in regards to serving in the military. I met a few soldiers that did that and I thought good for them, serve our country, become a citizen, and get money for college and have rights to qualify for a job! Great point NEB!

Naturallawyer wrote: "It is far more convincing to see someone willing to be beat up (a message of courage) than someone who is willing to beat others up (a childish tantrum)."

Exactly.

Browne, continue to yell and scream and harangue, rather than trying to persuade. Then tell me thirty years from now how much has changed.

Browne: where in my post did I say the things that you charge me with? I don't believe I ever said that a protest and blocking traffic was the same as an "extreme political move". The conversation had reached the discussion of militant groups (black panthers, etc.) and I was throwing my two cents in on that. Your response only typifies the unfair arguments I noted in the beginning of my last post.

In any event, I would point out that a callous attitude toward the public (no matter how it is manifested) won't help a cause. Whether a demonstration that has the side effect of blocking traffic exhibits such callousness is another matter which I have not addressed. I do not know the attitudes of the people who were protesting because I did not see it. I also did not feel the impact of the traffic because I walked home from work. Please do not read into my post something that isn't there.

One more observation that I have noticed, this is the only city that when someone holds up a lane of traffic that everyone lays on their horn solid until that lane is cleared, it's pretty amazing I have never seen that in all the cities I have lived in the US and around the world. The closest would be NYC they beep their horn but let off of it, not hold it down for 10 minutes or longer and all of them. This tells me people are so crazed to get to where they are going that they would just rather run over you, or try, something I have experienced here as I cross in the cross walk with the little walking man saying I can cross so I do in my walker and those cars turning push me and i try to speed up but can only walk so fast due to my military injuries. I know that this is the longest commuting area in the world, but sometimes we could try a little more patience, or move closer to your job. That's why I live downtown so I can work here even though I am 100% disabled. I don't it's right to take money from the government or the state because I am disabled veteran from getting shot, then blown up in battle. I'd rather earn my pay, that's the midwest up-bringing I guess. It's painful but I do it for Our Country and for the men and women that didn't make it back from all the Wars we've had. So, I hope that we can work through our differences and figure something out, otherwise we will be too busy fighting each other and not pay attention to what's happening around us, and globally. My commanders, even before 9-11 said we will have wars on US soil we will be fighting a war on our homeland here in the US. It's not that far off. Japan bombed us in WWII and as far in as Oregon, California, Colorado, yes it's true, look it up. Crazy I know.

The whole protest was very poorly planned by the protesters. I watched just about every news program that evening (after I finally got a bus home) and not one had a story about the protest. The media was all down at Staples Center for the Hannah Montana concert.

Alright, one last time into the breach. I'll try to be brief and keep the focus on downtown. I trust my good neighbors will indulge me. I actually think it is important to refute some of the dangerous and foolish assertions of Brownie and Koko. I have three points to make.

1) Since Brownie and Koko are determined to not consider the gentle advice of their friends, perhaps they will listen to advice from their enemies (i.e. me). Both of these gentlemen seem to think they live in some kind of authoritarian state in which lacks basic civil liberties, rule of law and economic opportunity. Obviously, they are deluded. I suggest they spend some time travelling outside of the U.S. Somalia, Iran, North Korea, Venezuela, the Gaza strip might be instructive.

They don't seem to understand that they live in a democracy where the path to political power lies in coalition-building. So when their friends and natural allies here at blogdowntown, who are inclined to be sympathetic to their cause, make suggestions about how they could be more effective in achieving their goals, their response is to hurl invective. As Joel C points out, this is pretty routine in how the left falls to infighting. From my perspective, it is called divide and conquer. Works for me.

One more thing which Brownie and Koko fail to understand is that their invective tends to have the long-term effect of turning their natural allies into guys like me, not reasonable people like Joel C. After a few years of these kinds of insults, one tends to think through the political agenda of these folks. It tends to be at odds with one's self-interest. The end result is to strengthen their enemies. Again, works for me.

I'd also point out to my progressive friends and neighbors here at blogdowntown, just imagine what Brownie and Koko would be like if they ever somehow got their hands on the levers of power in our society. The results wouldn't be pretty. Cuba under Castro would be instructive. Kiss those basic civil liberties, rule of law and economic opportunity good-bye.

2) Brownie seeks the high moral ground for his political positions and tactics by suggesting they are on par with Martin Luther King and Ghandi. Quite esteemed company, indeed. Alas, I think the assertion that illegal aliens are entitled to the same privileges as citizens is highly debatable. As pointed out by some others here, the option of joining the U.S. military is a open to them. Fundamentally, he doesn't seem to understand that illegal aliens are here by choice. They chose not to fight for political and economic justice in their homelands. Instead, the came to the U.S. illegally to make a living. For example, my mother-in-law has been here for near twenty years. She works in the garment industry. She has been deported a couple of times. She makes what many would consider a pittance. To her, she makes an excellent living. She doesn't see herself as a slave. With a third grade education, she thinks she's doing just fine. Indeed, with all the hardship she endures, why is she here? Civil liberties, rule of law, economic opportunity.

3) I was amazed that Brownie would be willing to stand with the likes of the Nation of Islam. I must admit they look sharp in those suits. I recall listening to a speech by Louis Farrakhan, the leader of this organzation. He was exhorting his followers to engage against a pogram against the Jews. Ugly stuff. The moment which sticks in the mind is when after killing the Jews, he'd dig 'em up and kill them again. Yeah, real nice. I wonder what your Jewish friends think. One of my buddy's dad survived the Holocaust, so I think you know what I think. My question for Brownie is -- did you miss this part of the indoctrination seminar when you signed on to the revolution? Or is this the reason why you signed on to the revolution? Either way, pal, you don't look good. As for my progressive neighbors here, again imagine what the world looks like if guys like Brownie get their hands on the levers of power. Think Pol Pot and Cambodia. Holiday in Cambodia, indeed.

Will Brownie and Koko heed my advice? Obviously not. But, as I pointed out, as they 'fight the power' and 'build the revolution', they strengthen the forces of reaction. Again, works for me.