David Kennedy on March 14, 2008, at 02:45PM – #1

I don't think this is a policy issue of bus vs. bike. The problem is with the bus drivers. My wife, a life-long rider of MTA, attests there are plenty of bad-attitude bus drivers who delight in being rude to customers and consider themselves untouchable. The complaint system which the MTA has is broken. She's made detailed complaints over the years with zero results.

She notes the DASH buses have their share of bad-attitude drivers. She once complained aand the driver himself called back to confront her! Great system.

I actually prefer rail simply because I know I don't have to deal with a driver.

Why the MTA and the DASH program don't make customer service a priority is a mystery. Those drivers are the face of the MTA. My hunch the union makes disciplining the bad behavior of drivers difficult. Too bad. With the considerable improvements to the MTA over the past decade, it is unfortunate this kind of behavior is tolerated.

Will Campbell on March 14, 2008, at 02:47PM – #2

Gah, that's long-distance maddening!

And I see my reputation has preceeded me! But you're too kind: I would've given the driver more than a few choice words. I would've boarded the sumbitch -- especially after that last encounter past Alvarado.

Sadly, I don't think you lost anything not getting the bus number simply because from my past experience complaining about driver antics (as a passenger and a cyclist and a driver) the only thing I've gotten from the MTA was a form response.

In a related matter on my way home eastbound on Venice at Culver Boulevard Thursday evening, after an MTA bus dove right across me to the bus stop and left its ass fully blocking the bike lane, the driver then had the nerve to honk at me after I threaded my way around it and back into the lane. I granted him the courtesy of a look over my shoulder at him but when he made a motion inviting me to get the hell out of his way I made a motion of my own back and stayed put. Fortunately I was fast enough off the line at the green that it didn't impede him and he couldn't intimidate me further. But as you mention, a less calloused or more easily intimidated rider could've been run off the road.

Enci on March 14, 2008, at 03:33PM – #3

I had an incident with a Rapid today on Ventura Blvd. Squeezed me into the parked cars and I almost went down. Got his bus and route number and reported him immediately over the phone.

I'm going to write a complaint email as well. We are archiving emails to the metro costumer service since Metro doesn't archive these. If you want to write to the Metro and voice your opinion, their email is:

Lynne Goldsmith Metro Bike Program Manager

and

Metro Customer Relations and

Please, if possible, cc or bcc to us the letters. We are keeping a record of these! Our email is

Be safe out there!!

Mark O. on March 14, 2008, at 04:00PM – #4

I ride to work every single day down Sunset, from Benton to Ivar. I'm an aggressive rider, so with my daily confrontations with bus drivers, I'm never really discouraged from riding.

But it's getting annoying. Really annoying. That bike lane on Sunset is so horrifically built. You're right, Eric. Heading east on Sunset is a nightmare and I always hug the left side because almost no one looks before opening a door.

I like Will's idea of boarding the bus once this happens. It may be the only way to make something happen, though I don't have much faith in the MTA system anymore.

Mihai Peteu on March 15, 2008, at 04:50PM – #5

I ride the 720/920 a couple of times a month, and sometimes the driver is mad cool (eg: active mtn biker/marathoner that respects cyclists) or a straight up asshole, as mentioned in the posts above. Usually, the assholes I encounter while riding alongside and not on the actual bus.

But this one time I had the pleasure of sparking up a conversation with a Big Blue Bus driver that seemed like an okay dude. Previous to this incident, I had more respect for the Big Blue Bus than the MTA, just because it's cleaner and "happier". So one night when I was bikeless and hopped on the bus at UCLA, this ignoramus chooses to honk for no reason when a cyclist passes him in the left lane on Santa Monica. "Asshole" he mutters. "I hate it when they do that" he says, referring to the cyclist's effortless lane splitting to get to the front of the pack. Seemingly even more frustrated by the cyclist's safely executed right turn a couple of cars up ahead, he leans on the horn for a few more seconds. Of course I tried to reason w/ him and explain that I bike everywhere and he has no clue the frustrations that we cyclists face on a daily basis, but we'll never know for sure if he was listening.

Can't really expect bus drivers to not have an attitude knowing the shit they deal with on a daily basis, especially MTA drivers, but some common sense and recognition that we make the air cleaner for their fucking children would be nice.

Mark on March 17, 2008, at 11:17AM – #6

Enci has it exactly right: Fighting back means: sharing the direct contact information, then contact-and-complain, and most importantly, archive and log those complaints. When it comes time to feeback on policy, we'll have in hand a contact list to tap for a letter to Metro or city commission, or an appearance at the hearing.

Lynne Goldsmith Metro Bike Program Manager >Metro Customer Relations and >

Great work! Ride smart, fight smart (TM)

Luke on March 17, 2008, at 08:20PM – #7

I think that tension between bikes and buses is tough. On one hand, I'm right behind buses, as they get more cars off the road, and are gateway for many people using public transport systems. Not as good as a tram or a subway, but a step in the right direction. When it comes down to street level, however, and a bus is cramming me into the gutter for the 20th time, you lose some of that idealism. :-)

Nice fixie btw.

Peter on March 17, 2008, at 09:39PM – #8

Actually, I'm going to take an opposite opinion.

When I have issues with busses and such, I pull off the road for a minute or two. As much as I enjoy bicycling, I'll be the first to admit that I cannot ride as fast as a car. Remember that busses have schedules to keep. If they spend some time sitting behind you, that makes them late for picking up other people further down the line. That affects lots of people further along.

At the risk of being rude, how is it that you figure you have a right to slow down a bus which will carry 100 people to work so you can bicycle to work?

Take a look at the bigger picture.

Mark O. on March 18, 2008, at 09:01AM – #9

Actually, Peter, the law supports me slowing down a bus. It's my right to occupy a lane on any road here in California.

But you assume that's what we're doing. Purposely taking up a full lane just to annoy those behind us. The truth is that this tension occurs almost exclusively when I'm trying to pass a bus that has stopped or is traveling slower than normal traffic. (And myself.)

I'm not one of those riders who travels at a lowly 12mph on my commute. I average between 18-25mph most of the time, use routes that have bike lanes/wide right lanes, and I'm conscious of other vehicles on the road.

If we don't assert our right to the road somehow, we'll continue being pushed off to the side.

Alek F on March 18, 2008, at 10:01AM – #10

Whereas sometimes bicyclists behave arrogantly, and they are to blame, other times - bus drivers are indeed being plain rude!

Once I had a similar situation (as the one described by Eric) as I was cycling down Santa Monica Blvd, in W.Hollywood area.

Well, between La Brea and Fairfax articulated bus #4 was for some reason unhappy with me (although I'm a VERY careful cyclist: have rear-view mirrors on both sides, always ride defensively, have 3 headlights, etc.); So the bus persistently honked at me for no reason. Well, little did he know I have the loudest bicycle horn that exists on our planet (yes, it's an Air Horn, that works on compressed air, it's almost as loud as a car horn).
So, I got plenty of satisfaction as I passed the bus and honked my horn at him! The driver was probably speechless for a while... Well, that happened a couple of times along the road, until finally I arrived to a store at Fairfax Ave, and then - after getting off the bike, I gave the driver a very unhappy look... He didn't seem to react. (was he mad an the OBJECT - i.e. bicycle, rather than the PERSON?)

So - yeah, some bus drivers are just... not having a good day... and it's sad they're taking it out on cyclists.
Alek

Peter on March 18, 2008, at 10:51PM – #11

Actually, Peter, the law supports me slowing down a bus. It's my right to occupy a lane on any road here in California.

Actually, no it doesn't.

See, as a bicyclist you have the same rights and responsibilities as a car. One of those responsibilities is to not impede the flow of traffic.

Now this is next to impossible on a bicycle. I mean, let's face it: even if you bike at 18 to 25 miles per hour, the speed limit is probably 40 or 45. Drive your car down the street at 18 to 25 miles per hour and see how much you get honked at. If the cops come along, it's likely you'll get a ticket for impeding traffic.

It's sort of a Catch-22: You have a responsibility to not impede traffic, but it's pretty much impossible for you not to as speed limits are generally set for cars, not bicycles.

When I was a teenager in Vermont, I had a 1949 Willy's Jeep CJ-3A. It was a wonderful vehicle to drive. However, it's top speed was 40 miles per hour. This wasn't a big deal, though, because the speed limit on the roads I drove was generally 40 to 45 MPH. Now, I was not significantly under the speed limit driving at 40. Of course, these were rural roads where people generally drove 50 miles per hour or so.

Now I had every right to drive 40 on those roads. But I didn't really figure I needed to make people late for whatever they were doing. So if a few cars piled up behind me, I'd pull off the road and let them pass. I figured that was the polite thing for me to do.

So even if we do say that it is your right to slow down a bus, do you really think that it's reasonable that you make 100 people late for work?

"If we don't assert our right to the road somehow, we'll continue being pushed off to the side."

I agree. However, I also like to point out that, as the signs say, we share the road with other vehicles. "Sharing" does not mean "we get everything we want and they have to put up with it." Sharing means that we bicyclists need to be aware of what effect we will have on the smooth flow of traffic and do our best to mitigate our harmful effects.

Take the bus you were talking about in your post. Now you're probably in better shape than I am--I tend to ride about 14-18 MPH on a flat road. But I doubt you were at your top speed while climbing up a hill. Now, you knew there was a hill up ahead, you knew there was a bus behind you. Rather than make the bus wait behind you when you know you won't be able to go fast, that's where I would have tried to find some place to pull off--even though I'd lose my momentum for the hill.

Frankly, more people will be willing to recognize our rights to the road when we recognize our responsibilities to other road users (cars, busses).

Tara Devine on March 19, 2008, at 12:27PM – #12

As someone who rides daily in City traffic, I've had the same experience several times. Most bus drivers aren't as bad as the one Eric describes, but I've run into the female version of your crazed driver. She not only laid on the horn repeatedly (the first time she scared the heck out of me; subsequently she made me angry), but when I continue to pass her at bus stops (in full compliance with bike safety laws) she opened the door at one of the stops and yelled at me, including use of the "F" word. Lovely. I didn't get the bus number, but I noted the route number, the exact time of day and bus stop location and forwarded to MTA. I tend to doubt that they took the trouble to identify the driver (most drivers are unionized, so I've been told that complaints really have to add up before anything much happens). But I did get a formal e-mail from MTA which apologized and said that their policy as an agency is to aggressively educate their drivers about bicycle safety and sharing the road.

Ditto with regards to your comments on Sunset - I feel the same way. The bike lane is not really safe. The lane is too narrow, and it's full on high-turnover on-street parking. It's like riding a tightrope and praying no one opens a car door - I do the same thing you do on Sunset, hug the absolute left of the lane.

SoapBoxLA on March 19, 2008, at 03:20PM – #13

Peter,

The "Impeding Traffic" mythology is often used, inappropriately, to tell cyclists to move out of the way.

On a street such as Sunset with 2 or more traffic lanes in each direction, the "Impeding Traffic" standard would not apply because slower traffic uses the right lane and faster traffic uses the left lane. In addition, if the bike lanes are blocked, as is often the case, the #2 lane is too narrow to share so the cyclists would then need to "control the lane" to travel safely.

The Metro also has an internal rule that Bus Operators are to pass with 3 to 4.5 feet of clearance. It's their rule.

You might find Alan Wachtel's overview of "Bicycles and the Law" interesting.

http://www.vcbike.org/bikelaw/bikelaw.htm#

Peter on March 19, 2008, at 11:34PM – #14

"The Metro also has an internal rule that Bus Operators are to pass with 3 to 4.5 feet of clearance. It's their rule."

Fair enough. Now consider the scenario as outlined, above:

"I'm riding eastbound just a bit past Santa Monica, in the bike lane but hugging the left edge [...] An articulated Metro Rapid 714 comes up behind me, starts honking, and continues to do so until he's halfway past me. Despite no significant traffic, he's up against the bike lane so tight that the bus is hanging over the line and coming into my already narrow space."

So the bicyclist is riding on the edge of the bike lane. In order for the bus to pass with 3 to 4.5 feet of clearance, the bus must actually take up two traffic lanes.

Remember that this is an articulated bus which requires more space to change lanes safely. Depending on traffic, this can be a real problem. So the bus cannot conveniently go into the left hand lane and return to the right-hand lane without blocking all of traffic.

As an aside, unless you drive busses for a living, I'm not sure I'd agree that there was no "significant traffic." My roomate used to drive 18-wheel trucks for a living and was constantly amazed at how people darted around her truck, even when there was "no significant traffic." Nobody wants to be stuck behind the big rig or the bus. We tend to forget that busses can't stop or maneuver as quickly as cars. Articulated busses are even less maneuverable.

Assuming the bus stays behind the bicyclist, cars will pile up behind the bus. Remember that cars can't see around the bus and will have to go into the left lane to get around. A constant flow of cars around the bus will make it impossible for the articulated bus to maneuver around the bicyclist, effectively trapping the bus.

Now, again, I won't argue that the bicyclist may or may not have the "right" to create this situation. From what I know of traffic laws, this may be the case.

But what I believe is that bicyclist--even if they have the "right"--is making a nuisance of themselves by causing traffic to be slowed down. Again, I understand why the bicyclist does this. But this is also a selfish point of view--that "everyone else should have to wait behind me!"

Possible solutions to this problem:

1. Pull to the right of the bicycle lane and slow down. I'd be less concerned with being doored when there is a large bus in people's mirrors. They might miss me, but they're probably not going to open their door into the path of a bus. By slowing down, the bicyclist should also be able to stop in the unlikely event that a door opens in his path. It will also allow the bus to get past quickly. When the bus has passed, shift back to the left side of the bike line to avoid being doored.

2. Pull off at the next stop light for a minute or two. Have a drink of water and relax. Let the bus get a little bit ahead of you. This isn't a competition between you and the bus. You both need to use the right hand lane. Again, why inconvenience dozens of bus riders?

In short, display courtesy. Be less concerned with "exercising your rights" and more concerned with seeing to it that everybody gets to work/home/whatever in a safe and speedy manner.

Naturallawyer on March 20, 2008, at 09:57AM – #15

I don't ride a bike often, but I'm guessing more bicyclists would be inclined to consider the schedules of the riders and pull over if they weren't getting incessantly honked at by a disgruntled bus driver. When the bus driver decides to start a pissing match with a bicyclist, natural human aggression is likely to take over and the bicyclist is less likely to be courteous. Tends to work that way between car drivers as well.

Browne on March 28, 2008, at 01:25AM – #16

I would think if this is about alternative transporation that bicyclists would understand that the bus does more to alleviate traffic than a bike.

A bike one person. A bus lots of people: Old people, disabled people, people with kids, people going to school.

Everyone can't ride a bike, but everyone can take public transit. If we focus on getting cars off the road then we can all use the road, not focus on getting busses to abide by rules that are made up for cars.

Busses need their lane to stay on schedule, yeah I get the law, but you know how hard it is for a bus to get over, to see you, to respect that gap with the people on the bus requesting stops, taking fares, etc...

The busses should be more considerate, but I've been in the bus behind a bicyclist and the bus is running late and its packed and sweaty and I'm about to miss my connection and a cyclist asserts their rights, yeah I get it, but if this is about the larger issue here. I would think cyclist would maybe be able to see the other point of view, just a little.

I mean isn't the fight with cars a better fight to pick? If you're going to pick a fight. It's that busses and bikes that have to share the road with the ultimate of selfish jerks, sole car drivers. I really think the cyclist community should rethink this whole "we hate the bus" thing. It's sort of like the fighting for crumbs theory.

Two groups with no rights fighting for the little bit of rights that they have and I think in general the bus rider community has been more than tolerant of the cyclist community on this and it's time for the cyclist community to think about bus riders. You don't have to agree with everything, but think about people on the bus, not the driver, but the people on the bus who depend on it.

Again I get that busses try to run riders off the road, that's bad, but as a cyclist and a bus rider I have WAY MORE problems with that one person in their car than I do with a bus and plus I just don't feel right.

I'm one person, I ride my bike because I care about tne environment, to me public transit is part of that (especially in LA, this city is huge and poor people and working class people can't afford to live a reasonable bike distance away from their jobs), so I yield the right of way to busses, not cars, but busses yes. I don't want people on the bus to be late to work, it's already hard enough taking the bus.

Everyone who uses alternative forms of transportation should really be focussing on getting the city to make a dedicated buslane and dedicated bikelane on major streets.

Browne

David on May 09, 2008, at 11:41AM – #17

I sent this email to the people listed above.

To whom it may concern:

I witnessed some very dangerous actions by one of your bus drivers this morning (May 9,2008). One of your drivers pulled away from the bus stop area at the corner of Sepulveda and Santa Monica and forced a bicyclist that was in the bike lane beside the bus into traffic infront of my car. Luckily I saw the cyclist and stopped before I hit him. The bus line was the 704 and the bus number was 9374. This took place at exactly 7:40 am. The bus was traveling eastbound on Santa Monica. I don't know whether the driver saw the cyclist or not, but the cyclist was clearly in the bike lane about midway of the very long bus when the driver left the bus stop area and nearly ran over the cyclist. I would appreciate it if you could retrain this driver about the safety precautions they should use when pulling out into traffic.

Thank you,

David Yount

Michael Ballard on August 06, 2008, at 03:29PM – #18

To all above:

I commute daily by bicycle. Different city, same basic issues. Pulling off so that a bus can pass would be stupid. First, there are many buses, so you'd be stopping a lot. Second, anyone that rides in city traffic knows that you get there at about the same rate by bicycle as you do car/bus/etc. Size has nothing to do with it. I don't really care that 1000 people are on that bus, nor how expensive the car is. They all have to share the road. Sharing the road DOESN'T mean having the bicycle pull off every time. Sharing the road means the bus/car/etc can pull around or get over it. The safety of the cyclist is a far greater concern than delaying someone.