Jason Burns on October 03, 2008, at 11:35AM – #1

I don't understand... Wasn't the initial outcry over these improvements because there are plans to redevelop the entire square?

Any minor cosmetic improvements that happen before a planned major overhaul are a complete waste of money.

Why paint the car when you're going to rebuild it anyway?

Jason Burns on October 03, 2008, at 12:33PM – #3

I hear what you're saying, Eric. Like you, I want Downtown to flourish. And I want it to happen yesterday.

Unfortunately, I think the irresponsibility lies in making small improvements that have the potential to be erased in 2 years. How can anyone justify a temporary landscaping project like this when the state of California is asking for a federal bailout of $7 billion?

That, is irresponsible.

BusTard on October 03, 2008, at 12:45PM – #4

I recall when the grass was off limits to everyone in the 1990s. parks and Rec stated it was done so to keep the grass intact. Perhaps Park and Rec should visit Bryant Park in NYC, where the grass is frequently daily trod on by thousands of people yet is in far better shape than the dying patches of cement-bounded grass in Pershing Square—except for a day or two after rain so that the grass is not destroyed.

Now the tiny patches of formerly grassy areas in Pershing Square are dotted with yellow patches owing to dog urine, and instead of forcing dog walkers and owners to simply curb their dogs over in the far larger dirt-covered areas on the east side of the "park," Parks and Rec wants to put in a dog park despite the absence of any real amenities for people—like a great grassy area with trees. Where Pershing Square already built up, say, like the couple of acres that is Tompkins Square Park (Avenue A and First Ave, 8th and 10th in Lower East Side) where two dog parks once existed as well as a fair amount of grassy area for people, a bandshell (before Giuliani had it torn down) and ample walking paths, basketball courts, et al, then I would not even consider kvetching.

But I feel this essentially amounts to a reward for dog owners—a very new and relatively small albeit extremely frustrating demographic in downtown. Despite the increase in dog defecation on the sidewalks and a fair amount of people who walk their dogs in such a fashion as to impede the narrow sidewalks, this small group is being catered to in a manner that is extremely unfair. Pershing Square has a rich history, but City Hall viewed it as competition (it was for a long time a true public square, and the last thing any government wants is its citizens freely exchanging ideas and organising on their own behalf) and took to destroying its heritage with a number of ever-ugly face-lifts.

For two decades, Pershing Square has been an embarrassment. It is a pimple on the face of a town desiring to be a city. A dog park amid the vast stretches of dirt, concrete and pee-stained patches of dying grass is not the way to undo decades of intentional malfeasance.

Purple Haze on October 03, 2008, at 06:54PM – #6

The only serious question is whether the doggie run will include hazardous materials warning signs. Yes, I'm afraid so; it has come to this.

Just like the chimps at the zoo, there will come a day when they'll start tossing it back. Eventually, one deranged person will venture into the park, see all of the dog turds at the south end of the square and take action. It ain't hard to figure! Remember the demented tenant of the El Dorado who poured buckets of you know what down onto passing pedestrians below?

It was propeller-head Jerry Brown and then saint Ronnie Reagan who turned out all of the mentally incapacitated onto the streets and one of them will become famous by tossing turds at Downtown Doglovers in broad daylight at Pershing Square.

It may read like a scene right out of Hill Street Blues but remember, you heard it here first, folks.

NO DOG TURDS!

Li on October 03, 2008, at 07:41PM – #7

Why are people so negative about a dog run? If there's a place for people to walk their dogs, the streets are likely to be a lot cleaner. BusTard, I hear what you're saying, but I think a dog run would draw a lot more people to Pershing Square and put more pressure on the powers that be to make further improvements (I'm saying this as someone who does not own a dog).

Meanwhile, can we also get a playground? The only playground in downtown is in Grand Hope Park, which is lovely but not all that close for families in the Historic Core. I live just two blocks from Pershing Square and it drives me nuts that it's basically unusable for me and my family.

Ginny-Marie Case on October 03, 2008, at 09:26PM – #8

Ya - a playground. All of the sudden our family needs a playground too! A skate park is dreadfully needed in Downtown!

Either that, or I show Iolani how to spray-paint camel toes into the sidewalk.

Brian on October 04, 2008, at 01:18AM – #9

I can't believe this is happening.

No, we do not want Quimby funds to go to developing a park that will be redeveloped in 2-3 years by Park 5th. It is a complete WASTE of money. Use the funds for pocket parks around downtown, in areas that won't disappear in 2-3 years. We are desperate for green space here.

I'm offended, disgusted, and appalled that their response was to wait a few months and push it through again, knowing the community doesn't have the time or energy to tell them ONCE AGAIN that this is an irresponsible use of Quimby funds.

This is infuriating. Give us green space that will last.

Your Kid Looks Sexy on October 04, 2008, at 05:18AM – #10

Yeah, a playground in Pershing Square is a fabulous idea! Checked the map of Meghan's Law lately? One of the highest concentrations of registered sex offenders reside in and around 5th Street between Main and Olive. Who needs a playground when your kid will have plenty of attention on his own. I don't understand this downtown stroller crowd one bit.

Dog park. So that's the "solution" to making Pershing Square a real park? Turning one end into a litter box so it can reek year round like the Silver Lake Dog Litter Box? Genius move that will be enjoyed by all.

LA really is a fucktard city sometimes. It's embarrassing.

John Crandell on October 04, 2008, at 07:29AM – #11

Parks and Rec ought to condemn or buy a chunk of the remaining parking lot north of the Medallion project for a park. Right at the northwest corner, at 3rd & Main, where two out of three of Lady Bird Johnson's Coral Trees still survive, there could be a memorial to L.A.'s connection to the Battle of Gettysburg. That story, one of the great legends of the Civil War, was used by writer Michael Shaara in his Pulitzer Prize winning novel The Killer Angeles and is oppulently displayed in the 1993 movie by Ted Turner.

Third and Main poses a great opportunity for creating new green space as well as adding historical resonance at the center of a city that is often said (so mistakenly) to have no history.

Li on October 04, 2008, at 07:51AM – #12

How much does it cost to build a pocket park? Is the money allotted to the Pershing Square improvements enough to actually build a pocket park? I love the idea of small parks scattered around downtown but whenever I bring it up I'm told it's too expensive.

d on October 04, 2008, at 10:48AM – #14

Downtown needs a dog park area.. It has a huge dog community. Just last night in perishing square my wife and I saw Chinatown and saw about 30-40 dogs. If the dog park is properly taken care of it won’t be a smelly burden on the community

Li on October 04, 2008, at 11:47AM – #15

There’s a lot being done on the parks front right now.

I'd love to hear what's going on. I tried talking to Hal Bastian about it and he totally dismissed the idea that pocket parks are going to be built.

Another thought occurred to me: with the economic meltdown, I wouldn't be too sure that Park Fifth is going to be built in the stated time frame. I'd rather see certain, incremental improvements to Pershing Square than wait for a big overhaul that may never happen (or at least not happen in the next two years).

Urban Bruin on October 04, 2008, at 03:56PM – #16

I'm glad to hear that they've opened up the process for residents to have an input.

Yes, we need a dog park in downtown. Yes, we need playgrounds in downtown. Why? Because Pershing Square is a public park; it should have amenities that represent the needs of the community such as benches, open green space, trees, playground and a dog park.

If Eric is correct, 20% (is he ever wrong?) of any population is no small "special interest" group but a significant part of the downtown community. I suspect the number of people with children is smaller but a growing demographic.

For all those opposed to a dog park, remember, all dog owner are 1st and foremost tax paying residents as you are, so we can, must and will have our interests addressed.

You are all invited to the Dog Walk Downtown L.A.'s "One Year" Anniversary Party on October 8, 2008 at 6pm Pershing Square. Free snacks and drinks Free doggie treats

Everyone is welcomed to join in the fun, those with and without dogs.

Juanito on October 04, 2008, at 05:05PM – #17

Let's hope the LAPD is out in force, checking animals for licenses and giving out citations for pet/municipal code violations at the upcoming 'DogWalk'.

I feel sorry for the maintenance personnel who now have to clean up turds left by thirty to forty free roaming animals. Brown spots will appear in the turf within days.

Ah! - for the days of the City Beautifull Movement. Now the square is destined for sand boxes, teeter toters, swings, and kiddies running among piles of dog turds on the lawn. Where is the Pershing Square BID? One or two years after the fact, the square will really be a mess - with the stench of canines added to the stench that now exists.

Anyone for a picnic on the lawn? Dear Councilwoman Perry, please tell all of these canine owning banshees to move back to suburbia! Pershing Square belongs to all of Los Angeles. It has never in it's history served as a playground for tots or dogs. It has always served as an esthetic visual escape from urban density for the population at large. They can take their animals up to Elysian Park or the future state park below Chinatown or put designer diapers on them.

It is now pretty clear that a 76 story condominium is not going to happen across Fifth Street. Not with the present real estate climate. Two days ago, Marc Cunniberti, an investment advisor of Nevada City, expressed deep concern that we may see a one or two thousand point drop in the DOW this coming week, that the bailout cannot stop the oncoming freight train and that a long economic depression has to be gone through to solve the unprecedented economic situation the country has gotten itself into.

And if anyone really wants to get real, they can Google 'methane chimneys' and read about what has been observed in recent weeks in the Arctic Ocean along the entire northern coast of Russia. We can forget about more condominium towers in Downtown, sorry to say, ever in our lifetimes. In the weeks and months following the inauguration in January, we will slowly come to realize that we are not only in a new era, that we may have gone totally around the bend as well. And if anyone hasn't yet decided who they'll vote for four weeks hence, they should check out the (astounding) cover story of the new edition of Rolling Stone (available online).

Forget about a dog run; we'll at least need a soup kitchen instead.

, on October 04, 2008, at 11:07PM – #18

Have you people ever been to an actual, well-run dog park?

The turd fear being written into these posts is completely unwarranted. Dog owners who actually take the time to take their dogs to a park for exercise are responsible dog owners. Responsible dog owners clean up after their dogs.

Dog parks are not dog-shit-free-for-all areas. They are peaceful, enjoybale places with benches and seats and water fountains (for people and dogs) and shaded areas where people spend time chatting with neighbors while their dogs run and play together.

In many places, playgrounds are even located right NEXT to dog park areas with no problems whatsoever.

This is, in fact, the case on Sierra Madre in Pasadena where a large beautiful dog park is situated right next to a cool modern playground area for kids -- park once and let the kids and the dogs play - it's pretty cool.

No turd smells come wafting over from the dog area as the kiddies play - the two areas coexist just fine -- and believe me, if there was any whiff of concern (pun intended) you can bet the over-protective yuppy suburbanite breeders in Pasadena would be howling loud and clear about their precious offspring playing on a playground RIGHT next to a dog park.

But there's no concern about the proximity of dog park and playgound equipment because both areas are well-maintained and enjoyed by responsible people.

Get past yourself - downtown is changing. The park is changing. Evolve. This is an urban area. Live and let live.

Purple Haze on October 05, 2008, at 12:01AM – #19

Cats, yes. Dogs, no. Take your turds and go back to Encino - , (Divine).

Norbie 7 on October 05, 2008, at 01:16AM – #20

Juanito, thnx for the heads up on the Rolling Stone article. Seems like Divine Repugs are not happey these days. I don't know what to think of the methane issue, but we sure don't need to add any more to Pershing Square (either 4 legged source or 2 legged).

Urban Bruin on October 05, 2008, at 02:19AM – #21

Suburban dog owners? "move back to suburbia!"

I live in the city...I work in the city...,and like millions of people who live in major metropolitan cities around the world I have dogs. Since when has owning a dog become synonymous with living in the suburbs? I guess if being a dog owner is being suburban; those with kids must be…rural by comparison?

Really, why fight, why spend so much time putting down and attacking fellow residents? Tell us your ideas, you know mine; acknowledge the changing character and demographics of downtown Los Angeles.

Each day with every new resident downtown is becoming more of a place where people live; not just work or leisure. With this change in population the city must adjust the type of social services it provides. Right now downtown is such a great place to live because of the sense of community people feel about the area. If those who disregard dog parks as the evil of all evils ever go to a well-run dog park they’ll see that in many communities (urban and suburban) they are the social center of the community. In many respects dog parks and children’s play areas are the modern “town squares”. They are places where communities come together and socialize. Memo to naysayers: socializing is a good thing…don’t be afraid...trust me!

Hopefully we’ll all participate in the evolution of this great social experiment; this urbanization of downtown Los Angeles.

francis on October 05, 2008, at 03:07AM – #22

How much does it cost to make a dog park? Let's see, need some fence, a gate, a trash can. L.A. maintenance already has to clean up homeless people feces and urine in the park, which smells far worse than dog waste. And to be honest, I think they would rather pick up some dog poo, than homelesss.....
Anyone ever been to New York? They have lot's of dog parks, and people who don't own dogs go there too, to watch them play. They are also very safe areas.

Urban Trojan on October 05, 2008, at 10:51AM – #23

Well, if a depression hits, ya'll might have to have a dog barbeque, instead of a dog walk.

ARFF!

Don Noyes-More on October 05, 2008, at 11:26AM – #24

If you go to the Central Library on-line you can look up photos of the 1915-1930's Square that looked really nice. It was stunning and really tropical.

Don Noyes-More Editor Downtown LA Life Magazine

You Want to Eat Your Lunch Next to a Litter Box? on October 05, 2008, at 12:02PM – #25

I don't.

If I take my lunch to the park, the last thing I want to smell is dog shit.

And to the above "dog owners are tax payers" poster... cocaine addicts are often tax payers, too, and you don't see the law against coke sniffing changing much.

Just because you people want dog companionship doesn't mean the rest of us (the overwhelming 80 % of non-dog owners, if we're buying the 80 - 20 percent generous estimate) need to look at your dogs shit, smell your dogs shit, or risk our kids getting bitten by your dogs. So your 1040 EZ form doesn't mean much.

Don't be lazy pet owners. You have Elysian Park, the Cornfield and plenty of streets to take Fido for a shit. Use them.

Having just been in Paris, it was so nice to hang out in beautiful, very busy parks with NO DOGS ALLOWED signs posted. No yellow grass. No "almost cleaned up" piles of shit. Although the French adore their dogs even more so than Americans, they respect how to keep a park looking and smelling nice.

Urban Bruin on October 05, 2008, at 12:40PM – #26

Lunch box if 1/5 of a population isn’t enough of the community to be addressed, tell us who is? Name another activity in addition to a children’s play area that would bring people to Pershing Square on a consistent, regular and daily basis?

It’s strange but if you read the original post, the dog park would occupy a small portion of the entire park. There has not, or is there a need to convert the entire Pershing Square area as a dog park. If you want to eat your lunch, make out with your significant other, play superfrisbee, rest on a park bench there is plenty of space left.

As for your comment about crack addicts paying taxes? One IS an illegal activity, the other…not so much.

Lastly, I challenge the next person who rights a "I hate dogs" or "No dog turd" post to try and also suggest something to help improve Pershing Square. It's easy to tear down other people's ideas, criticize their efforts but not as easy to make efforts to improve the condition of the community you choose to call home. We don't always have to agree but posting without an alternative really is a waste; not worth the time it takes to read it. I really appreciate this forum, most of the posts are from people who care and try to better downtown. I hope the rest of you follow their example.

OK on October 05, 2008, at 01:21PM – #27

With San Francisco's Union Square Park as a model (a busy, popular, proper urban park with adjacent public transport of various means):

1) A proper, well-designed, sophisticated cafe in the park with real coffee, apertifs, good pastries, etc. NOT a french fry hut, falafel stand or taco shack, which are about on par with what LA would accept.

2) A real newsstand carrying papers, magazines and books from around the world. Why is it such an effort to find international newspapers downtown?

3) No dog run. People are eating their lunches, having a glass of wine, etc. No dog run means no litter box smell wafting through the park. Dog owners take their dogs to the parks where dogs are permitted and have space to do their thing.

What more do you want in a real urban plaza? If you don't believe me, book a flight to SF on Southwest and go visit what Pershing Square could be.

OK+ on October 05, 2008, at 01:34PM – #29

Urban Bruin, are those enough examples for you?

Have you been to a city with real urban parks that dont have ugly kiddie playgrounds with screaming kids and dog litter boxes?

Check them out. They're nice. They're adult and sophisticated and they attract LOADS of people every day and they bring lots of people together.

Oh, yeah. And Wi-Fi. Rumor was that Pershing Square had free Wi-Fi. Brilliant idea, except the homeless aren't often toting laptops. (Has Villaraigosa BEEN to Pershing Square?) I checked last year when the Wi-Fi was to be working. Nothing. So, that's another thing that people can use to in addition to a good, non-Starbucks cappuccino, a current magazine from Paris and some time to take in some sun.

Benjamin Pezzillo on October 05, 2008, at 01:39PM – #30

It's good to see this will not be an opportunity lost after all...

OK on October 05, 2008, at 01:44PM – #31

Come on, Eric. That's a typical downtown LA response and it's that foot-dragging spirit that keeps downtown lagging for what we all really want, namely, for downtown to pull its shit together and be on par with other cities. I love the idea of downtown, but it's a shame that returning home from travel to other cities in the world makes downtown a let down.

Pershing Square has the Biltmore Hotel. Union Square is flanked with a couple of hotels. Some GREAT stores are around Union Square. If Pershing Square wasn't so stupid and inaccessible, the shopping around it (and blocks pushing out from there) would improve. Pershing Sq. has a Metro stop and buses galore. BART isn't far from Union Sq.

If there wasn't so much footdragging, we could have a class urban plaza that inspires an active, money-spending, cross-section of LA. To think so small as to only include a children's play area and dog run only serves to serves a handful of people who think Elysian Park is "too far" and ignores the city at large that would benefit from real improvements.

Urban Bruin on October 05, 2008, at 02:05PM – #33

Ok: Yes, Thank you.

I’ve travel, both domestic and international. I’ve lived in S.F., and D.C., and I agree with you that Pershing Square can be so much more than it is today.

Union Square is a natural comparison due to the size of the lot and the general appearance; but as Eric pointed out, Union Square is the main travel destination/shopping Mecca in San Francisco. The Pershing Square area is not, nor is the population surrounding both squares the same.

I offer up a different example of what Pershing Square can be; Washington Square Park in Manhattan, NY. Although the size of that park is much larger than Pershing Square the concept behind WSP is a great example of how many different interests can co-exist in an urban park space. The solution is not one idea to the exclusion of others.

http://www.nycgovparks.org/parks/washingtonsquarepark

OK on October 05, 2008, at 02:10PM – #34

Well, you can't contain the how far the smell from the dog run travels.

And whether a dog run in P. Square is a "major public need" is debatable.

Installing a great cafe, for example, and making that a priority, would attract way more people to the plaza and not only serve the handful of dog owners whose dogs already have places to play and defecate.

Does LA have urban planners? Or did that dept get cut? It's really shocking how lame our public spaces are here.

OK on October 05, 2008, at 02:41PM – #35

The problem with Washington Sq. Park as a comparison IS that it's vastly bigger than P Square. Also, Union Square, like P Square, is built over a parking structure.

But see? If things improve in P Square, like say, Union Square, THEN good stores will have the incentive to move around the park and up and down Broadway. Until then, we're only going to have cheap t-shirt stores, cheap / bad fast food, 99 cent stores, ad infinitum. Why is our tendency downtown to think small and accept small? I say aim high as now is the time for radical change. Otherwise, we'll all be dead before we see any change.

Juanito on October 05, 2008, at 04:33PM – #37

Urban Bruin, I see you've taken the photo of your leettle weener dog taking a shit on the lawn in Pershing Square off of your site. Gee, why'd you do that?

Beyond sanitation, hi tech K9 turf or whatever code-approved fume extraction system, it is the idea, the sight, of dogs shitting in the city's most prominent urban square. Most essentially, having a dog run means that dog owners don't have to bend over in public and pick up their pet's turds. Yes, let someone else do it. When I lived in Westwood, I would often see matrons of multi-million dollar households with their pets on a leash out on the street and they would put their hand in a plastic bag and pick up the dogshit.

A majority of us do not want to suffer the embarrassment of having this proposed facility built in Pershing Square. If city officials should decide that it is needed, they can buy out the lease for the bottom level of the parking garage and people can take their dogs underground to do it. Perfect.

As OK+ has so forcefully laid out, this is a primary esthetic human issue and if dog shitting is provided for and if funds ever are eventually secured for a major redesign of the square, a precedent will have been set and the banshees will howl night and day until they have their way. i.e. - dog shit will be formally included in the urban design solution for Pershing Square. And if one looks back at all of the hideous mistakes made in the course of design and engineering affairs in downtown over recent decades, one could conclude that a dog shitter in the square would be so apropos of L.A.

All of the places I've lived in my life, people and their dogs and all of the problems that accrue and I say HELL NO! To the members of the city council and the commissioners of recreation and parks and the commissioners of the CRA, please do not shit on Downtown Los Angeles.

Get over it dog lovers and get yourselves a pooper scooper. Exercise some responsibility.

OK on October 05, 2008, at 05:08PM – #38

wow.

rock the cazbah, Juanito!

nice to know that someone else is tired of treading around piles of dog shit downtown

Li on October 05, 2008, at 07:05PM – #39

To think so small as to only include a children’s play area and dog run only serves to serves a handful of people who think Elysian Park is “too far” and ignores the city at large that would benefit from real improvements.

Who is saying that Pershing Square should only contain a children's play area and dog run to the exclusion of everything else? Yes, have a cafe. Have a lawn. Have programming that serves adults. Why is this a zero sum game?

Two better examples for what Pershing Square could be are NYC's Union Square Park and Tompkins Square Park. Both have restaurants and farmer's markets, both have playgrounds and both have dog runs, all in a space comparable to Pershing Square. Adults, children and dog owners all manage to coexist without any hassle or controversy. Why can't we have something comparable here?

not quite the same on October 05, 2008, at 11:49PM – #40

Union Square in NY is 3 blocks at its widest side and Tompkins Square park is over 10 acres.

pictures to make u cry on October 06, 2008, at 12:02AM – #41

http://www.laparks.org/pershingsquare/images/0029.jpg

http://www.laparks.org/pershingsquare/images/0012.jpg

Li on October 06, 2008, at 08:39AM – #42

3 blocks at its widest side

Three NYC blocks, which are considerably shorter than LA blocks. Tompkins is bigger than Pershing Square but not much bigger--and it has two dog runs, two playgrounds and a swimming pool.

My point still stands--different groups of people peacefully co-exist within these parks. So why should it be different here? Why should one group of people dictate how the park is used, to the exclusion of everyone else?

John Crandell on October 06, 2008, at 11:39AM – #43

Instead of sky high condominiums on the north side, across Fifth Street from the square, there ought to be commercial and entertainment functions. Let's follow the Union Square precedent in San Francisco. This includes the lot surrounding the Redline portal cati-corner across the Hill Street intersection. Make the Pershing Square station a destination for shopping and tie in the Jewelry District in advertising/promotion. This location is within walking distance of a lot of government offices as well. They could go shop and catch a bite on their lunch hour. Gehry's retail mountain at the Grand Avenue project really needs to happen at Pershing Square instead.

As for the square, the design ought to be close to formal in layout and wild in the details. Wild by use of environmental artists such as Lita Albuquerque and Robert Irwin and Robert Graham. The formality would then serve to tie the diverse architectural surround together. Without a doubt, Lita and Mr. Irwin could come up with a tot lot not to look like a tot lot that would drive the kiddies wild and put smiles on everyones faces (imagination). Also needed: a horticultural extravaganza wherein the views into the square from the surrounding streets would be preserved. No isolation once you're inside. Irwin could do that, easy. Also needed: dining, reading, enjoying music, listening to public address. The square has a great history of soapbox orators, that which lasted from the bust of the 1880s up to the early 1970s.

Finally, the whole enchilada needs to come off as an exciting place to be and be seen. A destination amongst the facet of attractions there are Downtown. Highly urbane the place should be. Like others have mentioned previously, dogs should be verboten. You are so right Juanito, dog owners can pick up after their animals somewhere else. If they desire a suburban experience, they can move back to the burbs.

Cori Flaherty on October 06, 2008, at 11:52AM – #45

I know us dog people get really excited about a downtown dog park (even though so many are against the idea, proposed location, etc)...but in the meantime, check out the Lofty Dog's Barker Park in the Arts District. Yeah, it may not be walking distance for most and there's a membership fee but it's worth it! It's clean, never has that dog park smell and there is indoor and outdoor space. We started taking our dogs a little over a month ago...they go every afternoon...and have never been so happy! I think it's a win-win solution for dog owners and those so against this Pershing Square park idea. (an no, I don't work for the Lofty Dog, just a really happy customer!)

LA Lola on October 06, 2008, at 04:19PM – #46

"...dogs should be verboten. You are so right Juanito, dog owners can pick up after their animals somewhere else. If they desire a suburban experience, they can move back to the burbs."

I actually see way more dogs in downtown than I ever did when I lived in the Valley, where so many apt buildings didn't allow pets...

Why? on October 06, 2008, at 09:48PM – #47

Why is a successful strategy and planning format like SF's Union Square -- same size, built over a parking structure, and ringed with residence, retain and public transportation so impossible in LA?

The solution probably lies in importing creative talent from outside of Los Angeles who won't get snagged in the piecemeal demands of new-frontier residents. They can look at the Square as the failure that it is and jolting the place to life.

Frankly, I hope whatever's done there to elevate the surrounding area as well, so we have more than bland, corporate chain fast-food (oh, Domino's Pizza...so sophisticated, so worldy) and the junky stores that prevent any real shopping to be had downtown.

John Swartz on October 08, 2008, at 12:30AM – #48

I don't think Quimby funds should be spent to develop something if Park 5th will be re-doing the park in a couple years.

Oh, but I do want to officially promote the hell out of the Friday night movies and concerts that have been happening at Pershing Square! These are great! Show up people.. free entertainment at your front door!

Urban Trojan on October 08, 2008, at 08:40AM – #49

Yeah, Juanito - you got it right. Dog owners should be responsible for their pets and city officials should be responsible for making the square a fancy gathering place for visitors, conventioneers, the daily work force, shoppers and any and all residents of the city. This isn't Burbank! Don't let the place go to the dogs.

anony 5 on October 08, 2008, at 12:20PM – #50

I don't see how dog owners' responsibilities and a dog park are mutually exclusive.

And "any and all residents" includes dog owners.

It appears the only satisfying solution to the dog park opponents is to ban dogs from the city altogether. They don't like them on the sidewalks, and they don't want a park for them. Dogs should all be banished to the suburbs. No one in a big city should own a dog...just look at New York, Chicago, San Francsico....no dogs there, right?

Brilliant.

Juanito on October 08, 2008, at 04:59PM – #51

Why should the public be responsible for your pooch instead of yourself?

At the premiere urban square in the city, why should the non-dogsters have to behold your Fido taking a giant dump on whatever plastic designer turf? Yes, all of the tourists, conventioneers, office workers and the mayor will want to run right over to the south side of the square to kibitz and watch your animal let loose with piles of steaming, gleaming pooch dung. Who knows, his honor just might step right in it and make the six o'clock news! And proceed to leave a track all the way back to city haul (follow the scent, as Bob Woodward would say).

Beware of governmental expansion into this particular sector of private sector potentialities!

Just pick up after your own dog, o.k.?

Pershing Square Sucks on October 08, 2008, at 07:14PM – #52

Walked through there today again to try to think of the redeeming qualities about the space. There's nothing about it that's good. Nothing. It blows. Zero appeal. It reminds me of a colorful prison yard. And now they've added some shitty arts-n-crafts sculpture thing. Even the signage is gross: purple? Who the hell wants purple and yellow signage? Think the Lakers give a shit about a failure of a public plaza?

I was also thinking about the stench of dog shit in hot weather on top of the urine smell. I'd never eat my lunch in such a place.

anony5 on October 08, 2008, at 10:44PM – #53

"having a dog run means that dog owners don’t have to bend over in public and pick up their pet’s turds" - Juanito

uhhh. no. what?

Having a dog park means a dog can run off leash to get some exercise and socialize with other dogs and people in the neighborhood. Mature pet owners already know to pick up after their pets, whether on the street or in a park. It's called being responsible. And if they ever forget, there are plenty of other people close by to give them the stink-eye to remind them. No one wants their dog trampling through feces. And dogs don't spend 100% of their time outside in the squatting position.

I just don't make the connection where having a dog park (in an otherwise USELESS "park") means the responsiblities of pet ownership has shifted to the public. A dog park is not one big animal toilet. It's a park...for dogs....go figure.

Juanito on October 09, 2008, at 12:01AM – #54

Again, there is cause to pause, a precedent must be avoided. Otherwise, the four-legger fanatics will have their way whenever a permanent design solution is forged for the square.

Whether squatting to take a dump, romping wild over lawn or petunias (and chomping on the ankles or thighs of humans who get in their way, or peeing on anyone or anything they don't like) the question is how much space owners would demand for their pets. Of course the testosterone-laden lawyers from the law firms will demand enough space for their Great Danes and German Shepards to run and catch the Frisbees they toss around. Wide open swaths of turf is the highest maintenance and resource demanding planting solution there is (the antithesis of 'Green') and then it gets taken over for soccer play and gets worn down to bare soil. And then the cooks, bottle washers and Sarah-smile secretaries will want a designer Pitbull ring. Yup, for you know what. And then the Ho Chi Mihn Memorial Chefs Association will get into the act and demand a gourmet barbeque ring to handle the carcasses of the defeated combatants. More space! And then mavens from the Fashion District branch of the American Kennel Association will want a formal space for doggie fashion shows. Yes folks, one of those long linear stages, ramps or whatever they are called and that means more space for fashionistas to park their fannys to applaud their Fido or Fifi (or Cowboy). And we must not fail to consider space to lease out to the private sector. Yes, a Pershing Square Kennel where big and little critters can get clipped, shampooed and primped just in time to run out and let loose with another steaming pile of doo that a full time caretaker employed by the BID will have to gather up and dispose of, per municipal code.

Meanwhile, the employees and managers of retail outlets and upstairs offices facing the south side of the square will have to witness the carnival. And every time that they arrive or depart from work or glance out the window, one word will enter their mind: dogshit -

Stinky, Steaming, Gleaming piles of Poochgrunt, courtesy of Purina. Either the rate of personnel turnover will skyrocket or these people will take command, mount a protest in city council chambers and who knows what all will get tossed around. And then the Coen brothers would follow suit and each and every person who gets bitten will go hire one of those big ballsy Frisbee tossing lawyers and Rocky Delgadillo will be busier than he's ever been in his life.

That, folks, is how things get done in L.A.

anony 5 on October 09, 2008, at 07:41AM – #55

re: Juanito's last post

Wow. (laughing)

'nuff said.

a t l on October 09, 2008, at 02:59PM – #56

Earlier comments are showing a good amount of ignorance in what it means to have a dog park, and stereotype (even discrimination)against dog owners. Please don't judge me because I choose to care for a dog. I also to choose to care s lot about more important things besides my dogs, and they do include people, community, and spaces.

here's my two cents on perching square:

ultimately, the success of a public space unveils itself over time, when a diverse community has benefitted from and enjoyed its use. and by diverse community, i mean, pet people, homeless people, yuppies, children, community activists, and some guy alike. it's been over a decade since it re-opened in 1994. just judging from these comments and all the proposed renovations, the park still has a long way to go before it even has a small glimpse of success.

speaking as a dog owner, i would love for there to be an allotted area for my dogs to run unrestrained. but the urbanists in me says a couple patches doesn't mend an integral part of the urban fabric. it just makes for an arts and crafts project to keep everyone busy and content for now.

the park, in its entirety, along with its edges, the streetscape that borders it, and all its physical and visual connections, needs to be re-examined. if you plunk a dog park there, great. people will definitely use it. but will it enhance the park overall? most likely not. it will remain that no one hangs out in the shade along the perimeter, because they don't want to disturb the homeless folks sleeping there. and no one wants to hang out in the middle of the square, because there's no shade. and because it's a no man's land. usually people do not like to be singled out in the open, especially in public. unless, they want attention. or unless they feel secure that there are vigilant eyes around them.

i think one of the biggest mistake is that, if you're on the street, you can't see what's going on in the park. and vice versa. jane jacobs philosophy of 'eyes on the street' doesn't apply here. wouldn't it be nice if you were sitting at arda's cafe or at one of the restaurants by the biltmore, and to have a view right into the park? right now, the park is an island.

i think renovations at an urban scale should be more than just a beautification project. there are so much more underlying issues with the design of pershing square, that the simple addition of grass and trees, or exercise equipment, or even a dog park, will not suffice in making it the urban park that downtown needs... and can enjoy.

we can definitely learn from other cities about successful urban squares. for now, pershing square sits in the hall of shame:

http://www.pps.org/great_public_spaces/one?public_place_id=796

JK on October 10, 2008, at 09:22AM – #57

I'm totally opposed to dog parks of any size adjacent to areas/parks where the majority of the people are not dog owners. It's going to smell like shit and it's a waste of space. Make the park look beautiful, put trees there, anything. There are enough corners on downtown where I get to look at piles of shit and smell piss. The square should be somewhere to get away from that!

Urban Bruin on October 10, 2008, at 02:03PM – #58

Funny that the same people who extol the virtues of city life are the one who complain most about its shortcomings. Too crowded, the smell of urine, too many homeless, dogs and children…blah, blah, blah. Maybe in L.A., we really do things differently; because in all other major metropolitan urban cities all of these different cast of characters live and work together.

Pets and kids as exclusively suburban? Memo: San Francisco, Chicago, New York, London, Paris, Rome, Shanghai, Hong Kong, Tokyo, et al, all have millions and millions of people living together, some even with children and dogs.

In the suburbs there are lots of open spaces for specialized interests. Dog parks, children’s parks, big parking lots for big malls but in the city people share. They share space, they…um, what’s the concept? Yes, “mix-use” of space.

For example: to those less traveled; unlike in L.A., where the metro station is only a means to an end, in true urban cities they are the lifeline of the city. Entire communities are built into the underground; people eat, shop and socialize in the underground.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underground_city

Another example of the “mix-use” of public space are the parks. “Junato Crandell”, a “café”? That’s the best idea you have? Sure, put in a café; as novel of a concept as that is, in many parks around the world they have cafes, but they have so much more, a performance stage, children’s play area and dog parks. Yes, yes, you’ll click on my links and say something witty like they are BIGGER than Pershing Square. Maybe, but the idea is the same, people in small spaces have to live together, share what little open space they have. Pershing Square isn’t big but it’s not too small to be better and adding things that people will use will make it better.

http://www.japaneselifestyle.com.au/tokyo/yoyogi_park.htm

Maybe, just maybe you’ll understand that city living is not an address but a state of mind; an openness to living with your common man and woman.

BTW:

Juanito = http://www.visions-of-l-a.com/

John Crandell = http://www.visions-of-l-a.com/

Crandell "Like others have mentioned previously, dogs should be verboten. You are so right Juanito, dog owners can pick up after their animals somewhere else. If they desire a suburban experience, they can move back to the burbs."

Did you think giving yourself props would go unnoticed?

….”turd” "I win"

landscape architect on October 10, 2008, at 03:42PM – #59

It was thoroughly intentional, dufus.

Thnx for the publicity.

If anyone might want to recieve Juanito Crandello's scaled/3-D design for Pershing Square in PDF format, they can send a note to publisher@Visions-of-L-A.com.

ARFF!

Xavier Grobet on October 10, 2008, at 10:47PM – #60

It will take years before the park is redone, and it really needs it. why not make a few changes to encourage improvements in Downtown.

Michael Palecki on October 11, 2008, at 12:28AM – #61

Whoa, Urban Trojan! Lighten up on Burbank. Just because my college room mate was arrested there on the Golden Mall for allowing our dog Godot (as in Waiting For...)to chase pigeons and urinate on passed out winos - dosen't mean the town hasn't progressed since then. The mall was bulldozed as Pershing Square should be. Take down the armaments and create an urban oasis that welcomes pedestrians. That is a completely different issue than a dog park. Except for his walking distance transgressions at the mall, Godot loved to ride in the car and be taken on excursions.There should be a dog park destination in Downtown, but that dosen't mean Pershing Square. It dosen't have the acerage of Central Park and has yet to even come close to providing a green space for people. Form a dog owners association and lobby for a true destination, instead of forcing an add-on to an already inadequate space.

You can see it if you look up Broadway on October 11, 2008, at 09:21AM – #62

How much bigger of a park does one need for dogs than Elysian Park?

It's there. It's massive. It's green. And dogs can run everywhere. And get this: they can shit in the woods and no one cares!

Ohhhh. I see. Unless you live in those shitty apartments up against the park, it's over a block away rendering it "too far" away...

Dog people, get off your asses and use what's already there and there in abundance.

anony 5 on October 14, 2008, at 12:22PM – #63

landscape architect writes: It was thoroughly intentional, dufus.

It was your intention to be called out and look like an idiot? Ok, job well done.

Urban Bruin on October 15, 2008, at 08:05AM – #64

Sure you did…

Urban Bruin on October 15, 2008, at 08:08AM – #65

Urban Bruin: “Sure you did…”

Spot on catch. I’m sure it was all “part of the plan”; you know, use a bunch of different personalities, self promote poor arguments and fabricate support; then be called out to task. Didn’t you know, it was all part of Juanito/Crandell/Landscape Architects master plan.

UB: D’oh!...walked right into his trap! Newman!!!

seana on October 17, 2008, at 04:07PM – #66

Whoever Juanito is, he has too much time on his hands. Anony, you took the words right out of my mouth. Dog parks and responsible dog owners aren't mutually exclusive. I don't believe I've ever witnessed so much illogical hate for animals as what Juanito displays.

Juanito: "Wide open swaths of turf is the highest maintenance and resource demanding planting solution there is (the antithesis of ‘Green’)" You obviously haven't done your research. This K9 grass is much lower maintenance than regular grass. Hopefully Eric Richardson will do a follow up post on the fact that these types of dog parks do not smell and that people pick up after their own dogs, not just leaving it for a BID employee.

Also, the term "Pershing Square belongs to all of Los Angeles. It has never in it’s history served as a playground for tots or dogs." is a contradiction in terms and a completely idiotic statement.

Juanito on October 17, 2008, at 05:41PM – #67

Someone's still steamed.

Remember folks, they want space in your urban square so that weimareimer Fifi can drop piles of gleaming, steaming, stinking dog turds and brazenly walk away and let Joe The Turdscooper take care of it. It will evolve into a stinking mess. The square's BID was not formed to clean up after Yuppie's puppies or to provide a tot lot with the visual pollution of swings, slides, merry go rounds, trampolines and climbers. These suburanistas want to turn the square into an eyesore in every way: the stench, the visual clutter, the barking, the biting and all the dead plant material.

STEAMING, STINKING, GLEAMING PILES OF DOGSHIT! What a health hazard.

SF's got it right on October 18, 2008, at 01:52PM – #68

We're so fucking backwards downtown sometimes. We could have something as successful as SF's Union Square Park but no, we allow ourselves to settle for a homeless depot.

Swing sets and a dog little box only serve a subset of the loft world down here. There are a lot more people who are 1) childless; 2) petless and 3) who may or may not care for either. I'd like to have a nice meal in the plaza, in a hub for people who come from East LA and Silver Lake and Koreatown because there's something attractive about being in the park. I also don't need to smell dog shit or listen to the mommification of child discipline when I'm relaxing with a glass of wine...

oh right. We'd never allow ourselves a chance at a sophisticated public square.

John Crandell on October 18, 2008, at 10:19PM – #69

69 and counting...

It's all about poochgrunt, people. Urban sensibility. Refinement.

The new edition of Downtown News weighs in on the effect which Disney Hall has had on Downtown and the city's image five years on.

Let's hope for a solution to the square that will make it a point of destination for all of the tourists who are visiting Disney Hall as well as people all across the metropolis, a highly sentimental locale that citizens return to again and again. We need a sense of magic in Pershing Square.

We should keep the focus on this issue. After the arena, the cathedral, the hall and the H S for The Performing Arts, perhaps the square could become the next big thing for Downtown. How about ten million bucks, Eli? You can't take it all with you (other than what can fit in the coffin). Bang that drum, Ms. Laris!

today on October 22, 2008, at 08:53PM – #70

Imagine how gross P S (Pee Square) would have smelled today with a dog litter box?

sick.

tim on October 30, 2008, at 11:44PM – #71

Hey "sf got it right" ....quit being so bitter. Sorry you have no love to give to a child or even a dog but dont mock those of us that do. The park should be for everyone....not just the snooty singles sipping on wine. tim

John Crandell on November 23, 2008, at 09:48PM – #72

Having researched and written into the history of the area surrounding the 3rd & Main intersection, I long ago came under the spell of a Civil War legend that centers there. This legend pertains to the southeast corner, where the public triangle of land sits with it's two surviving Coral trees.

As an environmental designer, I suggest that this triangle of land be transferred to the city parks and recreation department and expanded to become a new city park. The CRA redevelopment plan for the adjoining Medallion project includes new park space at this locale.

The latest available report of the 9th Council District Parks Development Task Force spotlights only two miniscule sites in Downtown for open space acquisition - at Rose & Traction and at 11th & Hope. Rather than wait for the construction of the second phase of the Medallion effort, perhaps it would be better for the city and for Downtown to utilize Quimby funds to acquire an appropriate amount of land adjoining the triangle. (Design and construction of landscape is far easier, more flexible and less expensive on solid ground as opposed to on top of underground parking. Trees can grow way large and not fall over).

Given the historic content of the immediate area, I would also suggest that this content serve as the basis for a professional design competition. We need a new 'Hancock Square' and it should be located at 3rd & Main. Army captain Winfield Scott Hancock resided there prior to the nation's Civil War. The story of him, his landlord and his associates and their later involvement in the war and the denouement of that story at Gettysburg is L.A.'s one true pre-Hollywood Hollywood epic.

Their story needs to be memorialized as an element in the new landscape. At the opposite end of the spectrum, there can also be a dog run, perhaps to suffice for what area residents have been wishing for at Pershing Square. Given the existing and future highrise developments surrounding Pershing Square, a dog run therein would be far more problemmatic.

Whatever organization that would oversee a competition would need to have non-profit status. In this way, individuals and companies can contribute to fund the competition prizes and have a tax deduction as well. I'm not certain whether all public agencies have inherent 501-C-3 status.

Being familiar with the history of 3rd & Main, I'm certainly willing to kick in to get the ball rolling. I'll give a thousand dollars. Just as long as some sort of memorial can be included in the program, eloquent enough to complement the historical content which resides there.

Who will join me?