Visualizing a Downtown Streetcar
LA Streetcar Inc
A streetcar passes L.A. Live and Staples Center while travelling north on Figueroa.
DOWNTOWN LOS ANGELES — L.A. Streetcar Inc, the non-profit set up to bring a streetcar to Downtown held its first major fundraiser on Thursday evening, a well-attended affair that brought in more than $200,000 for the effort's operations.
Councilman Jose Huizar, philanthropist Eli Broad, shopping mall magnate Rick Caruso and AEG CEO Tim Leiweke co-hosted and talked about their support for the project, but the real star of the show was a video the non-profit produced to talk about the project.
Included were video renderings of how a streetcar would look as it made its way through Downtown's streets. The animation by Portland-based Newlands and Company — a firm that specializes in transportation-related renderings — seamlessly blended live-action streetscapes with the rendered public transit, showing the car passing by L.A. Live, the Walt Disney Concert Hall and the Orpheum Theatre.
Art Walk on October 01, 2010, at 12:08PM – #1
Bring it on...
Guest on October 01, 2010, at 12:55PM – #2
lets do this!!!! for the connectivity in general but....one GOOD reason being that i live in Little Tokyo--but if i want to see a movie i have to get in my CAR (lame) and park at the new LA Live theatre---AND pay 5 dollars for parking--WITH VALIDATION. no thanks.
Guest on October 01, 2010, at 01:37PM – #3
It's a cute idea but I'm indifferent to the downtown trolley idea.
Downtown is a disaster on so many levels and making it more liveable -- dog-free parks, dedicated dog runs, better food and markets, better signage and street maintenance, public toilets, etc. -- all interest me more as a downtown resident.
What we often call DTLA is only a fraction of what DTLA really is. And at that, this fraction isn't that big. A walk from Main to Flower, for example, only takes 10 minutes, 15 if you're strolling. I'd rather fill that distance with more interesting and better things than focus on a trolley.
Militant Angeleno (@militantangleno) on October 01, 2010, at 01:42PM – #4
It needs to be colored Red or Yellow!
Brigham Yen on October 01, 2010, at 01:44PM – #5
Guest #3 - The things you mention, such as better shops and restaurants, street maintenance, etc. is called economic development. And economic development is directly affected by investments, both public and private, that are injected into a given community.
Portland is always a great example to bring up because it has proven that introducing a circulator trolley system that gets people walking and exploring areas outside their usual comfort zone can spawn new economic development, such as new shops, restaurants, and even billions of dollars of new mixed-use/commercial projects.
Many of the things you want as a resident could come as a result of introducing a trolley system as businesses that would otherwise not invest their money/time into the area see DTLA as a viable and profitable location.
So whether or not YOU will be using the trolley doesn't mean that you shouldn't care about it/be indifferent, because it will DIRECTLY affect you and hopefully in a positive way as it attracts more of the shops and restaurants and other amenities you desire as a resident of DTLA.
Guest on October 01, 2010, at 01:58PM – #6
if you want to get to (walk) from the South Park area to the Little Tokyo/Arts area---the two jumpin' parts of town--the straight shot is through Skid Row.
ill walk around the edges during the day...but honestly--im not gona' walk around there at night...and i highly doubt any any other of the recent renter/owners DT would either unless they work there or are scoring.
this needs to be discussed.
Guest on October 01, 2010, at 01:59PM – #7
Get people walking?
DTLA is ALREADY easily walkable. Just walk. And the DASH has well been in place now. I'd rather see DASH house extended throughout the night. We have transport for those to lazy or unable to walk the 8 blocks that DTLA is wide.
Oh, I see. We need something shiny and new to get people interested.
Chris Loos on October 01, 2010, at 02:02PM – #8
"I'd rather fill that distance with more interesting and better things than focus on a trolley."
Guest #3, why would running a streetcar down Broadway prevent new shops from opening there as well? Shops are typically not constructed in the middle of the street, but rather along side of the sidewalk...you know...in buildings?
In fact, it will likely be the streetcar that causes these new amenities to pop up. See Brigham's comment on economic development above.
Laldava02 on October 01, 2010, at 02:11PM – #9
We need is to effectively link the active areas of downtown and create an impetus for economic development in the areas in between. This is exactly what the streetcar does. It has been effective in Portland and could easily have the same impact here.
Streetcars are visible connectors that appeal to a diverse range of riders. They have a positive impact on property values and can create a sense of place better than buses ever could. A streetcar circulator is a key part of downtown's next phase of development and could have an amazing effect on revitilazing Broadway and other areas that is passes through.
Hala Pickford (@misspickford) on October 01, 2010, at 02:34PM – #10
Bring on the streetcar, but the proposed design is so god awful ugly. Buses are a blight on society, particularly a visual one. Why mimick that? Why can't we make our streetcars look nice and classy, so they'll blend in to the beauty that is the architecture for places like Broadway?
If they keep this design they'll seriously lose my support. One of the pluses of a streetcar is its NOT a bus. Buses are filthy, disgusting, germ filled hell holes (yes, I unfortunately must ride them for the moment). Why are we making the streetcars essentially an ugly bus without wheels?
Brigham Yen on October 01, 2010, at 03:01PM – #11
I don't think they're ugly at all. They blend in wonderfully in Portland and they'll fit in well here too.
Besides, how else can a streetcar look like?
I mean, sure the old classic ones are beautiful, but they don't make them anymore!
Guest on October 01, 2010, at 03:04PM – #12
Regardless of the aesthetic debate (and p.s. subways and trolleys are as germ filled as buses), a trolley is not a guaranteed economic stimulus.
Pittsburgh, for example, has had an extensive trolley system for decades. The city, downtown in particular, has been on an economic decline for 15 years.
A shiny trolley might look and sound modern and pretty, but it is not the answer. It's an assumption that businesses will flock to open downtown because of a trolley.
Whether you like the way the DASH buses look or not, its extensive "circulator" network is already in place, is very useable, is much cheaper than the trolley will ever be. It's 35 cents.
Use the structure that's already in place, extend service to 24 hours, put in Wi-Fi and reap a multiplicity of benefits.
Guest on October 01, 2010, at 03:07PM – #13
Don't let Jose Huizar hold Downtown ransom with this project! This is an important project, but Downtown needs to unify around one council office. He is trying to make it look like Broadway can not come back without him! Make no mistake, downtown will be able to attract more real investment if it is represented by a single council district. Downtown was raided by Council District 14 in 2002. Broadway was sacrificed to special interests in Boyle Heights, seriously inhibiting the comprehensive redevelopment of downtown. They've had since 2002..Just look at Broadway...First, we should vote Huizar out of office in March. Next, we should demand that Downtown be unified as a community. The City will be forming a redistricting committee next year using the new Census numbers. In 2002 a West LA district was moved all the way to Van Nuys. It's Downtown's turn!
Brigham Yen on October 01, 2010, at 03:16PM – #14
Guest #12 - The difference between Pittsburgh and LA is that the latter is the second largest city in the country with a downtown that has already gained a whole lot of momentum from dedicated efforts (I was a part of that when I was at the DCBID) and continues to do so, such as the announcement of the Broad art museum, a possible Target and re-energized 7th+FIG, etc.
A streetcar circulator is the next step in the maturity of DTLA which will undoubtedly bring in more interest from many other businesses that already see DTLA in a much more positive light. Perhaps the streetcar with a newly landscaped/cleaned up Broadway will be enough to finally convince Trader Joe's and other hard-to-get businesses to invest in DTLA.
Also, what's great about the circulator is it can also be expanded (new lines added onto it) quite easily. Portland has been expanding theirs and I see DTLA only as the starting point and model for future streetcars, such as a line running from Chinatown (Grand/Cesar Chavez) to Echo Park, Silver Lake, and to Los Feliz.
Don't forget about the Arts District. It's got tons of potential and a future streetcar connecting that area would be great because you always have to think about it from a standpoint as a pedestrian. How do I get there comfortably without a car?
There are tons of buses, and if we don't change the way we do things around LA, it stay just that way, hardly anyone using the buses to get around. There's something about a train that people like. And it'll get people on board.
Friskie Buffet on October 01, 2010, at 03:35PM – #15
why are the tracks going in only one direction? that seems confusing and inconvenient to potential riders. Keep it SIMPLE and easy, understandable to everyone. And if one-way streets have to be changed back into a two-way configuration, all the better.
Eric Metz (@lastreetcar) on October 01, 2010, at 04:39PM – #16
@Friskie: take a look at the proposed streetcar alignments: http://www.lastreetcar.org/planning-design/route-destinations/
Modern streetcar systems work best when they operate as a couplet. A couplet, in which one set of tracks runs on a separate street in a different direction, allows the streetcar to benefit two different streets while minimizing traffic impacts. The benefits of having routes close together, within a block or two, is that riders can reach their destinations in a timely manner by walking a block to catch a streetcar running in their desired direction, while not having to ride the entire route to get there.
Shaun on October 01, 2010, at 05:07PM – #17
I'm curious how this will work with LA's horrible public transportation payment/ticket system.
I think first we need to implement a universal payment system. It would be nice to have free transfers for x amount of hrs like San Francisco's bus system.
It's just very inconvenient to pay to take the bus to the subway to the streetcar each time. Day passes would work but they are not easily available unless your trip is entirely premeditated.
Guest on October 01, 2010, at 05:32PM – #18
Agree with Shaun. I've ridden public transit systems in a number of cities in the US and out, and LA is the only city that I've seen that requires purchasing separate tickets for each segment of a trip. It may seem a small nuisance, but it is one of those glaring examples that LA can't figure out public transit. Another huge example is the lack of good price breaks for buying multiple fares. There should be a great price break for pass that offers 50 rides in 30 days-that's the daily to and from for a month.
Guest on October 01, 2010, at 08:32PM – #19
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carte_orange
for example
Amanda Manklang (@schmandapanda) on October 01, 2010, at 09:53PM – #20
This would be so great to help me get to the places I need (more like WANT, haha) to get to when the DASH stops operating around 6-7pm. I live in the OBD, which is great, but one day I'd like to go to LA Live at night without having to drive and pay for parking.
David Klappholz on October 02, 2010, at 06:34AM – #21
@Shaun: LA Metro has had TAP cards for some time; they can be used on buses and trains; it's possible to buy a month's worth of travel for a fixed price, or to put any amount of money on the card. The only thing that the TAP card system doesn't do, as far as I know, is allow for free transfers within a fixed number of hours -- which the NYC Metro card, for example, does.
Guest on October 02, 2010, at 08:11AM – #22
If you want to see what the Portland "downtowners" are saying about their streetcar system, you can check out their blog here:
http://blogtown.portlandmercury.com/BlogtownPDX/archives/2010/09/16/streetcar-ridership-mystertiously-rising
Their comments about the success of the system are mixed at best.
Guest on October 02, 2010, at 09:45AM – #23
Beef up the DASH buses instead. Paint the downtown DASH buses a fancy color if you want, or even redesign them to look like a streetcar on wheels.
What kind of warped world are we living in where we'd rather cut the DASH service and build a boondoggle streetcar line?
Portland, Portland, Portland...who cares!!! Psst...between you and me...we're not Portland. Oregon has growth boundary laws that kept sprawl in check and brought the folks back to the city. Yes, Los Angeles is getting the folks back too, but we would have 10 times the downtown population if California had growth boundaries. Lucky us...we get Palmdale, Riverside Co., San Bernardino Co., etc etc.
And please get over the "we're so great because we're the 2nd largest city." Who cares! Remember what Slider said in Top Gun...no points for second place. We could learn a lot from cities of all sizes all over the country. Even Pittsburgh, even Pittsburg, California!
I'm excited about the Broad museum too, but that just reminds me of one of my biggest gripes about Los Angeles...the cheap rich people! Broad, Broad, Broad...he's everywhere, he's awesome, but he's in a lonely category of giveiness. Most other American cities have a waayyyy higher level of generosity from their upper crust. Come on, rich people, Eli Broad is lonely...he'd much rather you pitched in too! Break us off some of that
Guest on October 02, 2010, at 12:26PM – #24
The monthly TAP card costs $75. For 50 rides, which is a months worth of daily commuting, this is $1.50 per ride, which is the regular price. If I don't ride 50 times, the TAP costs me more than buying a ticket. If they would offer a better price break, it would be a greater incentive to commit to public transit.
Jim Shafer on October 03, 2010, at 10:31PM – #25
Overall, the project is great, but I'd like to see a retro-looking design for the cars. We have such a rich streetcar history here in Los Angeles, and the train design shown in the images has no connection whatsoever with that history in terms of appearance. I don't think we need a "sleek, modern" design to convince people this is a good idea. If modern-looking cars are used, at least they could honor the old, pre-60's system (Red Cars and Yellow Cars) by using red and yellow in the color scheme, as the Militant Angeleno suggested above.
Scott Mercer on October 03, 2010, at 11:16PM – #26
1) "Portland who cares?" Are you kidding me?
The example of Portland proves that a streetcar system can work and can foster development. That increases the tax base. That makes it NOT A BOONDOGGLE. I don't care what complaints the people in Portland have on a website, the facts don't lie. The streetcar there has lead to a large amount of development and increased revenue. It isn't in dispute. Any problems with the system (bad service or what have you) are a separate issue.
2) Pittsburgh is a bad example. Firstly, the city has been in decline economically for a long time. Secondly, their system is more of a light rail, like the Blue Line, than it is a streetcar central city circulator type installation.
3) The old streetcars are a bad design. They are not adaptable to modern facilities and are not ADA compatible. The Siemens style cars shown in the video, to my mind are fine and don't look like buses at all. These are the cars that are used in Portland.
When are you anti-rail people going to wake up and smell the coffee?
Guest on October 04, 2010, at 12:08AM – #27
Los Angeles can learn a lot from Portland...but not about streetcars. Portland had been (re)developing long before the streetcar, and would have continued developing in the same trajectory if the streetcar had never been introduced.
George Bush was president when the Portland streetcar was implemented. So should we credit Bush for Portland's development too?
Guest on October 04, 2010, at 01:11AM – #28
"When are you anti-rail people going to wake up and smell the coffee?"
As we are already enjoying the coffee in its comforting, sobering powers, we're wondering the same about you people so brainwashed into thinking that this magical "circulator" streetcar is the panacea for downtown. Are you all bitter ex-Portlanders who came to LA because there's more money here?
If you're so impressed with the Disneyfication of downtown ala LA Live (Mall of the Living Dead) just say so - admit that you want the same corny, theme park transit for that corny theme park shopping area.
If you're not walking, biking and taking the bus / DASH now, you sure aint gonna take a streetcar.
Guest on October 04, 2010, at 02:03AM – #29
Video seems broken.
David Klappholz on October 04, 2010, at 05:20AM – #30
@Guest 8: I'm the last one to want to see anything Disney-fied; for a long time preferred NYC's 42nd St. when it had some porn shops and other perceived "sleeze" to what Disney et. al. did to it some years ago. (At least it felt real!!!) But, whether or not you like LA Live, and whether or not it feels Disney-ish to you -- it doesn't to my wife and me -- it didn't replace anything of value in DTLA, which Disney-fication of 42nd St. did to the old 42nd St. in NYC. Rather, it added something appealing to many, and has brought significant revenue to, a peripheral part of DTLA that was previously empty of anything of interest. (BTW, we live in LA a few months of the year, and near NYC the rest of the year.)
Guest on October 04, 2010, at 08:42AM – #31
The above images indicate a streetcar that runs curbside (like the streetcar does in Portland). However, in L.A. there was a problem running the streetcar curbside down Broadway: It was going to cost more money than running it down the center of the street because basements from the stores extended underneath the street. To save money, it was proposed that we run the streetcar down the middle of Broadway instead.
Can we assume from the photos that a decision has been made to run the streetcar curbside? Or is that just artistic license?
Guest on October 04, 2010, at 09:47AM – #32
i realize its not a fair comparison, but having recently (in the last 2 yrs.) worked in San Francisco...i can tell you that the old timely streetcars are packed to capacity consistently as well as the Muni Metros. seriously packed. all the time.
John Swartz on October 04, 2010, at 05:44PM – #33
Bring on 2014!
John Varela on October 04, 2010, at 06:13PM – #34
Everyone would love for this to happen. It would just make downtown LA so much more fun to be in. The world would notice and the tourism that is still strong here would benefit too.
Guest on October 04, 2010, at 08:05PM – #35
Isn't it ironic that 100 years ago streetcars were used by real estate developers to lure homeowners away from the city center? In fact they made urban sprawl possible way before the automobile. 100 years later most of those tracks are long gone.
Guest on October 04, 2010, at 08:57PM – #36
Not everyone
David Klappholz on October 05, 2010, at 04:56AM – #37
"Isn't it ironic that 100 years ago streetcars were used by real estate developers to lure homeowners away from the city center? In fact they made urban sprawl possible way before the automobile. 100 years later most of those tracks are long gone."
Not really, as it wasn't the streetcars that actually brought down DTLA between 1960 and 1980, which, I believe, was when it went downhill.
100 years ago downtown was filled with homes and businesses, and wouldn't hold much more without becoming overcrowded. Those who moved to "distant" suburbs like Echo Park (Angelino Heights) and West Adams -- BTW, it was 120 years ago or so, not 100 years ago that this started -- came downtown to work and play. Today, DTLA needs to attract more people, some to live and some to just play.
Jessica Wethington McLean on October 08, 2010, at 03:04PM – #38
Guest #10 - The basements along Broadway aren't an issue. The sidewalks are going to be bumped out anyway with the Broadway streetscape plan. Curb-running is better for pedestrians and businesses, has far far less of an impact on traffic than having to stop traffic at each intersection all four ways to allow the streetcar to make a turn, and curbside loading is infinitely preferable in terms of modern transportation public safety best practices than trying to put a pedestrian island in the middle of the street. It would be a curb-running system all along the route.
Russell Brown on October 09, 2010, at 10:54PM – #39
To add to Jessica's comments, the basement do extend from the building edge, but only half way into the sidewalk. They rarely extend to the curb. This is visible in the sidewalk repair on Broadway at the Spring Arcade entrance.
The curbside loading of the streetcar will actually be in the 2nd lane of traffic from the curb. A bump out will become the platform foot print and allow passengers to enter almost at grade into the streetcar. In areas with no bump out, there will be a lane dedicated to parking and loading zones. Also one lane of traffic on the street is removed to allow extended sidewalk which can accommodate trees planted in real dirt, not in pots.
The streetcar lane will also be shared with cars.
This second lane from the curb in which the streetcar will move is the same lanes that previous streetcar tracks used to exist on most streets. This second lane also solves the issues of sewer, electrical and telephone lines being under the track, since the utilities are almost always in the curb lane.
Guest on October 09, 2010, at 11:32PM – #40
I kind of understand the advantage of one to the other, but why exactly is a trolley better than a bus, such as the DASH line? Is it because more people have a bias against using a bus? Is it because the look and layout of a trolley seems somehow "sexier" to non-dedicated users of public transit?
Since a streetcar has a pre-established, mapped pathway, at least some people who worry about boarding the wrong bus and ending up by mistake in Pomona or Santa Monica will have more confidence in using a streetcar. But a trolley will cost much more to implement compared with relying solely on an existing bus system like DASH. So do the advantages of a streetcar outweigh its price tag?
Guest on October 10, 2010, at 12:15AM – #41
If the property owners kick in the funds, I'm sold on it.
I'd like to see an independent analysis determine whether the streetcar deserves the credit for increasing property values in case studies like Porkland. If credit really goes to the streetcar (and not just coincidence), start coughing up, property owners...it's money making time!!!
Guest on October 11, 2010, at 02:48AM – #42
The DASH is great and needs to be 24 hours. No fear in "accidentally" ending up in Pacoima or Santa Monica as the DASH doesn't go there.
I'm totally against a streetcar for DTLA. It's absolutely unnecessary.